Free will?

[lypse]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

[Floatingaxe]

I have free will because I know not what God foreknew of me! The reality is I don't know myself what I will choose. God gives me that right. He doesn't ordain my choice, but He knows what it is.

[cjrose]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

Sorry, this sounds like a riddle to me. God is far from contradictory. We have a choice and it all depends on how much in the world we are or how spiritual we are whether we choose which door leads to sin or away from it.

[larryt]

Free will is not a biblical doctrine. God restrains when He need to to accomplish His will.

Volition is the correct biblical doctrine. The ability to choose is not the same as free will.

Ge 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

God kept Abimelech from interfering with His plans even though he would have chosen.

LT

[Floatingaxe]

Free will is not a biblical doctrine. God restrains when He need to to accomplish His will.

Volition is the correct biblical doctrine. The ability to choose is not the same as free will.

Ge 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

God kept Abimelech from interfering with His plans even though he would have chosen.

LT

Excellent!

[Floatingaxe]

Free will is only logical contradictory if you didn't fully think it through (logically speaking of course)

People can feel plesant things and painful things. natural instinct is try to stay in the plesant zone and avoid pain. By reasonable deduction I can tell you that you will pick the white door.

also by reasonable deduction if you lacked feeling one or the other you will choose the opposite door because you haven't experience one or the other.

After you experience both you will always pick the white door.

Why? What was the White door leading to? She never said!

[Adarian]

Many people confuse free will, or just freedom in general, with license, which is the desire and the so called freedom to do as they please without anyone being able to say anything about it.

Logic is mental exercise, but has little value is spiritual matters. Logic can be used to state that there is a God, and that there is no God. It's a bit like debate. The most persuasive speaker wins, but truth is not necessarily part of the victory.

In the fashion of the opening statement of this thread, it could be said that all of the people in hell had no choice but to go there as they had no free will, due to the all knowing ability of God coupled with His creative endeavors. But the fact is that it is the will of God that all men should repent and be saved, even though many did not and will not who find themselves in hell, and that they are there contrary to the will of God even though He knew of old who would of their own free will reject the salvation of Christ.

[LadyGunivere]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

lypse

Free will-

Deu 12:11 And it shall be the place which Jehovah your God shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, there you shall bring all that I am commanding you, your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice freewill offerings which you vow to Jehovah.

God allows for it even if the Old Testement....I pray for you. I'm sorry for your shaken faith. If I have offended in the other thread sorry. GBY

[ladypeartree]

lypse I am so very happy that you are trying so hard to prove that God doesnt exsist...if you really believed that you would not be bothered with the amount of hard work you have put into your questions and debates ...I couldnt be bothered to debate the "man in the moon " theory cos it is just nonsense....I pray that you find the answers you are seeking and that you come to really know God.

[Anne]

There's a man in the moon theory? What have I missed lady P?