Free will?

[cjrose]

I could pen my own "scripture" right now and state that it was the inspired word of the almighty God...And so could you! What's the freakin' difference? We could write a whole new bible if we want!! The book of John Lennon???? Why they'd crucify me!!!!! NOT.

May I ask why are you here?

We are all here for the same reason are'nt we? A forum is a place for talking right? I apologize for being a little too cheeky and kidding around about John Lennon but it's a joke. In all seriousness I believe there may be a God even though this forum has labeled me nonbeliver. Did you ever think that all this infighting and judgement in religion is what ruins it for people? If there is a God..He could not have wanted the world to turn out this way. Imagine how the world would be without religion but in brotherhood and cooperation. God was there all along looking down upon a planet in peace. But if he is up there, all he looks down on is destruction. That is sad is'nt it?

I just think he likes to "hear" himself talk.

[Guest drbelitz]

The question of free will, moral liberty, or the liberum arbitrium of the Schoolmen, ranks amongst the three or four most important philosophical problems of all time. It ramifies into ethics, theology, metaphysics, and psychology. The view adopted in response to it will determine a man's position in regard to the most momentous issues that present themselves to the human mind. On the one hand, does man possess genuine moral freedom, power of real choice, true ability to determine the course of his thoughts and volitions, to decide which motives shall prevail within his mind, to modify and mould his own character? Or, on the other, are man's thoughts and volitions, his character and external actions, all merely the inevitable outcome of his circumstances? Are they all inexorably predetermined in every detail along rigid lines by events of the past, over which he himself has had no sort of control? This is the real import of the free-will problem.

RELATION OF THE QUESTION TO DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF PHILOSOPHY

(1) Ethically, the issue vitally affects the meaning of most of our fundamental moral terms and ideas. Responsibility, merit, duty, remorse, justice, and the like, will have a totally different significance for one who believes that all man's acts are in the last resort completely determined by agencies beyond his power, from that which these terms bear for the man who believes that each human being possessed of reason can by his own free will determine his deliberate volitions and so exercise a real command over his thoughts, his deeds, and the formation of his character.

(2) Theology studies the questions of the existence, nature and attributes of God, and His relations with man. The reconciliation of God's fore-knowledge and universal providential government of the world with the contingency of human action, as well as the harmonizing of the efficacy of supernatural grace with the free natural power of the creature, has been amongst the most arduous labours of the theological student from the days of St. Augustine down to the present time.

(3) Causality, change, movement, the beginning of existence, are notions which lie at the very heart of metaphysics. The conception of the human will as a free cause involves them all.

(4) Again, the analysis of voluntary action and the investigation of its peculiar features are the special functions of Psychology. Indeed, the nature of the process of volition and of all forms of appetitive or conative activity is a topic that has absorbed a constantly increasing space in psychological literature during the past fifty years.

(5) Finally, the rapid growth of sundry branches of modern science, such as physics, biology, sociology, and the systematization of moral statistics, has made the doctrine of free will a topic of the most keen interest in many departments of more positive knowledge.

HISTORY

Free Will in Ancient Philosophy

The question of free will does not seem to have presented itself very clearly to the early Greek philosophers. Some historians have held that the Pythagoreans must have allotted a certain degree of moral freedom to man, from their recognition of man's responsibility for sin with consequent retribution experienced in the course of the transmigration of souls. The Eleatics adhered to a pantheistic monism, in which they emphasized the immutability of one eternal unchangeable principle so as to leave no room for freedom. Democritus also taught that all events occur by necessity, and the Greek atomists generally, like their modern representatives, advocated a mechanical theory of the universe, which excluded all contingency. With Socrates, the moral aspect of all philosophical problems became prominent, yet his identification of all virtue with knowledge and his intense personal conviction that it is impossible deliberately to do what one clearly perceives to be wrong, led him to hold that the good, being identical with the true, imposes itself irresistibly on the will as on the intellect, when distinctly apprehended. Every man necessarily wills his greatest good, and his actions are merely means to this end. He who commits evil does so out of ignorance as to the right means to the true good. Plato held in the main the same view. Virtue is the determination of the will by the knowledge of the good; it is true freedom. The wicked man is ignorant and a slave. Sometimes, however, Plato seems to suppose that the soul possessed genuine free choice in a previous life, which there decided its future destiny. Aristotle disagrees with both Plato and Socrates, at least in part. He appeals to experience. Men can act against the knowledge of the true good; vice is voluntary. Man is responsible for his actions as the parent of them. Moreover his particular actions, as means to his end, are contingent, a matter of deliberation and subject to choice. The future is not all predictable. Some events depend on chance. Aristotle was not troubled by the difficulty of prevision on the part of his God. Still his physical theory of the universe, the action he allots to the no

[cjrose]

Could you make your posts a little longer?

[Guest drbelitz]

Could you make your posts a little longer?

that seems to be the worlds point of view. give it to me quick and make it easy so I don't have to take time to actually read and study, or see what anyone else taught for the first 1500 years of the Church.

Give me the wide road, one with contraception, with divorce and abortion on demand, and make Christianity a "feeling" and a "sensation" instead of a solid Truth.

This is the thinking of the Western world, in its secularistic version of Christianoity, called "Bible Christianity" where the individual can interpret scripture and make new and invented doctrines.

No thank you, I will take the meat, the pure and solid teaching built on rock, and i will also take the time to study what those before me have taught, especially those directly linked to the source, which were Christ and His first Bishops(the apostles) with a direct succession to them in all ages.

You think this post is long? as compared to what? other posts?

who is the judge of what is long and what is not? is not one book of scripture longer than this? yet you read it and think nothing of its length.

Is not sound doctrine more important?

I think so.

[cjrose]

Could you make your posts a little longer?

that seems to be the worlds point of view. give it to me quick and make it easy so I don't have to take time to actually read and study, or see what anyone else taught for the first 1500 years of the Church.

Give me the wide road, one with contraception, with divorce and abortion on demand, and make Christianity a "feeling" and a "sensation" instead of a solid Truth.

This is the thinking of the Western world, in its secularistic version of Christianoity, called "Bible Christianity" where the individual can interpret scripture and make new and invented doctrines.

No thank you, I will take the meat, the pure and solid teaching built on rock, and i will also take the time to study what those before me have taught, especially those directly linked to the source, which were Christ and His first Bishops(the apostles) with a direct succession to them in all ages.

You think this post is long? as compared to what? other posts?

who is the judge of what is long and what is not? is not one book of scripture longer than this? yet you read it and think nothing of its length.

Is not sound doctrine more important?

I think so.

Oh dear, Not even going any further with this one Thanks for your input.

[Candi770]

We were created to be dependant on God, not self. So all we have to do is ask. He tells us in scripture. You have not because you ask not. Hello-all I have to do is ask. If I have a relationship with Him and I communicate with Him-how hard do you think it is for me to ask him another question. If I don't ask-it is my fault. If I don't have a relationship with him-it's my fault. If I sin=it is my fault!!! It's not his fault when we are stupid and led of ourselves.

candi

[redeemed098]

God created a white and a black door in the garden of Eden...One was the tree of Life and the other was the tree of death.

He didnt simply say choose... He specifically instructed them that one of those trees was out of bounds...

He therefore would not create a black and a white door and then say choose which one you will walk through...

He would tell you which one leads to life and which one leads to death...God never once said you have free will. He simply gave the right option and the wrong option and left it at that...You are not free from the consequences of any wrong decision. So to say that you have free will is not correct. You can choose LIFE or you can choose DEATH. There are consequences for obedience and consequences for DISobedience. You have simply been given the ability to choose.

The choice however he will leave up to you..

Your entire premise begins, middles and finishes on a completely wrong premise...You ultimately assume there is something wrong with God that must justify why you are the way you are...This in itself is the very demonstration of the sinful nature at work..."It must be Gods fault because it cant be mine. I'm a good person."

Begin your questions on a RIGHT premise and you might begin to get somewhere....YOU are the sinner. God is perfectly righteous.

If he chose to create you regardless of the decisions you would make and allowed you to make them anyway, then it was perfectly right for him to do so.

All you are doing is looking for a way out...that is what the sinful nature does...Look for excuses to justify sin. Ultimately you wind up condemning God in ORDER to try to justify those sins...

Black door, white door, tree of life, tree of death....Doesnt matter. You have never been given two alternatives and asked to guess.

You have been told specifically that ONE leads to life and the other leads to DEATH....

Now stop making excuses and coming up with futile arguments to try to get out of this....You cant..You must decide...God may already KNOW what youre going to decide, but he didnt make the decision FOR you....If he did, then right now he must have created you to perish unsaved....This alone is of no value to you as a defense because you have at the same time acknowledged that you know you can make the choice TO be saved. So the original question will come back to you all the time....Knowing all of this, why is it that you would willingly choose Death...???? Is it pride..? Is it anger..? Is it self righteousness...??

"Why O Israel will you DIE... I the Lord take no pleasure in the death of anyone...Rather, REPENT and Live.."

The scriptures are also clear that "Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Lets look at that shall we...? What are you NOW...? Flesh and blood...Yes..?

Ok, so now we look at the scripture...If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, then clearly something must happen to us before we CAN..

It is written in the scriptures that "What we SHALL BE has not yet been made known...We are also told that those who are still alive at the coming of Christ "will all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye." That means we will be changed into whatever glorified body we will have in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Those who are dead and buried it is written, "those who have been sown perishable, shall be raised IMperishable..." those whose bodies who have perished will be given NEW bodies, glorified bodies as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Having said all this, there is a truth you need to be aware of......The time to hear about and take hold of this truth is while you ARE FLESH AND BLOOD. Today is the day of salvation..This life you live in the physical body today is your opportunity to turn away from sin and toward God. Dont ignore it or try to debate it with arguments of black and white doors....Mans philosophies are a futile attempt to save himSELF. I think he might find some recognition for that when he is able to raise a man from the dead. Only God has the power of Life and Death. "For you know not the time of your death." Yet every day live in fear of it.

Regards,

Ben.

[eric]

Right on, Ben.

[lypse]

Now stop making excuses and coming up with futile arguments to try to get out of this....You cant..You must decide...God may already KNOW what youre going to decide, but he didnt make the decision FOR you....If he did, then right now he must have created you to perish unsaved....This alone is of no value to you as a defense because you have at the same time acknowledged that you know you can make the choice TO be saved. So the original question will come back to you all the time....Knowing all of this, why is it that you would willingly choose Death...???? Is it pride..? Is it anger..? Is it self righteousness...??

I still don't follow you. If God KNEW the person I would be (non-believer of Christ, etc) BEFORE he created me, HE made the DECISION to let me remain an unbeliever, although he allegedly had the POWER and KNOWLEDGE to make sure I knew Christ. Now, since He DECIDED I would remain an unbeliever, then surely I was created to perish unsaved, so of course I wouldn't see any reason necessary for me to be saved.

Who willingly chooses death?? And what does the tree of life and death have to with two doors ??

[Guest essentially-the-same]

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION.

I don