Free will?

[Neopatriarch]

I believe God is powerful enough to create me with the ability to choose a door with freedom. He knew wich one I would choose, but He takes pleasure when we choose the correct door without being forced. I could be wrong on this, but that is how I see God in the Bible.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will . . .

Since God ordains all things (works all things according to the counsel of his will), and God knows all things (he knows not only what we might do but also what we will do), I can only conclude that we do not have free will (that is, libertarian free will).

God gave us logic (otherwise how could we be sure any thought we have is correct). If God created beings to choose the wrong door, and they had no choice in it, then it would be illogical for Him to be angry with them. All throughout the bible God is angry at sinners and with people who did not choose Him.

'Choice' means we are translating our beliefs and desires into an action. We may be presented alternatives, but we will always choose what we desire most. I don't believe we have the freedom to do otherwise. Does this mean we aren't responsible for our choices? . . .

Suppose I'm given two alternatives: 1) I can murder someone, or 2) I can give to the poor. And suppose I have a chip implanted in my brain that prevents me from giving to the poor if I were to try to do that. Since the alternative is to murder someone, I must murder someone. If the chip is forcing me to murder someone against my will, then this choice is not free. But suppose I want to murder someone rather than give to the poor. The chip does nothing. I am acting in accordance with my beliefs and desires. The fact that I did not have the freedom to do otherwise doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my actions, does it?

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,

[eric]

Good post Neop.

[busdriver72]

I guess I'll wade into waters here.

One the one hand it is not reasonable to think that the unregenerate, sinful flesh would hear the gospel call (to deny ones self, take up the cross and follow the Lord)would jump up and say "goody!" The carnal nature does not want to deny itself.

But then again, it is silly to envision the Lord pulling someone by the feet, with their hands clawing the ground as they get dragged away going "Noooooooo! I don't want into the Kingdom of Heaven." and the Lord saying "Who cares? You're going anyway!"

Election, free will, presdestination? All of them are Biblical, and somehow the Lord makes it all work to His good pleasure.

Figure it out????

I'm still trying to get my mind around GOD and the glory of who He is.

When I get God figured out, then I'll be back to explain everything to y'all....'cause if I get Him figured out, everything else will be easy.

Really, though, there is a mystery here that regardless of how hard we try we will not be able to get our minds around it.

The Bible reveals God calling and electing throughout history. That's nothing new. But it also reveals Him holding people accountable for their decisions.

Also, I have pondered human "free will." Really, it isn't free. No matter what you "will," or what decisions you make, somehow....in some way you have been influenced. All of our decisions....from what time you get up to what soda you drink....is influenced by an external factor. The human will is not free from being controled or influenced, but it is free in the sense that it can be influenced.

Apart from the Holy Spirit, we would not turn and follow Christ. Since the Holy Spirit is the personal presence of God, contact between God and a human is a personal thing, so, in a very real way God "elects" the person He is drawing toward Christ, or He has "ordained" them.

Edited March 23, 2007 by busdriver72