Hebrews 6

[endure4salvation]

I have a friend that happened upon a Calvinistic website and wrote to the author and this is the reply that was received:

Your entire presupposition is predicated upon an assumption in a lie...better, The Lie in Gen. 3 and this 'Lie' is spiritual darkness, blinding you in a self righteous hidious self deception.

You said: 'MAN IS CHOOSING WHETHER TO ABIDE IN JESUS OR NOT'

Casey, have you ever tried to talk to a dead man? When you are dead in your sins your DEAD dead. I never saw anything dead choose anything. (See Jn. 1; and Eph. 5). That is why salvation is a supernatural miracle. Man's ability (natural or the flesh),and human effort is absolutely not a part of Jesus

[tsth]

Jude 1

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

???

In His Love,

Suzanne

[whatsitmean]

Yes, that is exactly what I encountered. I haven't figured out exactly how to pin down its error. I don't think the 1500 years approach will work to well. First I thought 'limited atonement' would be an easy target, but now I am more inclined to think it is man's sovereignty that is the weakest point.

The freedom of choice that God gave to Adam. I said, If God was not able or willing to intervene on the behalf of Adam to keep him from rebelling, in what manner is He going to ever keep us from sinning? Adam could have been kept from sinning, by not putting the tree in the garden and then allowing the serpent in. Adam did not know good and evil. We do. We sin by just thinking, we don't have to act it out. Locking us in a garden won't work.

The tree is what made Adam free. It gave him the way out of the Garden. With no way out, he was a prisoner. If Jesus wanted prisoners for a bride, He could have saved Himself a trip to Calvary. A God who is LOVE, can do better than take a bride who has no other choice but to go through with the wedding, no matter how willing she is.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is tough to accept, but my wife has some sovereignty in this relationship. Strangely, I would not have it any other way.

All Adam and Eve did when God came looking for them was admit guilt "I did eat". They were worthy of death. No expression of remorse, no asking forgiveness, no repentance. All that would come later. Their admission did not change anything about their condition. They were just as dead in sin after as before. As dead as the worst sinner is today.

BUT the next sentence from the mouth of God was the promise of redemption from the seed of the woman. Adam was saved, becasue God had a plan.

We love HIM because HE first loved us and purchased our salvation on Calvary.

Angels did not know the depth of God's love. Adam did not know. Even Abraham and all the OT saints, were not able to comprhend it. But we do.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

[tsth]

Very Good Study WIM!

I might add this:

The Question

The question is not, "Can man save himself?", we know he can't. The question is, "Can man recognize he is a sinner?"

Yes he can.

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

(OT) Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

(NT) Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

Then once man hears the Word of God spoken, and the wooing of the Holy Spirit to him, then he can call out to Jesus to help him (save him) from his sins.

God told Cain he needed to master it.

(OT) Genesis 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

(NT) Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.

How do we master it?

Call out to Jesus Christ and acknowledge that He died for your sins. That He alone can help you to master and rule over sin.

Romans 8:9 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

And we (continually) call out to God.

(NT) Romans 8:15. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

(OT) Psalm 107:10 Those who sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, Bound in affliction and irons-- 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, And despised the counsel of the Most High, 12 Therefore He brought down their heart with labor; They fell down, and there was none to help. 13 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, And broke their chains in pieces.

Psalm 66:16 Come and hear, all you who fear God, And I will declare what He has done for my soul. 17 I cried to Him with my mouth, And He was extolled with my tongue. 18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear. 19 But certainly God has heard me; He has attended to the voice of my prayer. 20 Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer, Nor His mercy from me!

Psalm 116:I love the Lord, because He has heard My voice and my supplications. 2 Because He has inclined His ear to me, Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.

3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow. 4 Then I called upon the name of the Lord: "O Lord, I implore You, deliver my soul!" 5 Gracious is the Lord, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful. 6 The Lord preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me. 7 Return to your rest, O my soul, For the Lord has dealt bountifully with you. 8 For You have delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, And my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the Lord In the land of the living.

Then once man hears the Word of God spoken, and the wooing of the Holy Spirit to him, then he can call out to Jesus to help him (save him) from his sins.

James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

not receive:

Strongs #1209 - to not accept, not welcome, not take

Receive the Word

James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Repent Today for today is the Day of Your Salvation.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[whatsitmean]

A Calvinist would shoot all that down from this statement:

The question is not, "Can man save himself?", we know he can't. The question is, "Can man recognize he is a sinner?"

They would say, he cannnot do anything untill after he is born again. Man can not do anything. Ever. It is God working in you, and the first step is being born again.

They think that if man must do anything then salvation is dependant on us and not God.

Limited atonement: only pre selected ones are atoned for. This is what they gave me:

As John Owen

[tsth]

Yes, I had forgotten what it was like to go round and round. I used to do that a lot, in fact I got booted off of Crosswalk, for presenting the gospel to one who continued to go round and round with me in that manner, so I just began to present the gospel message........that made em mad at me and indignant. They asked me to leave. Interesting huh?

I don't debate with the Calvinists anymore, it's toooooo monotonous for me.

There really are many references to "choice" within OT, but they had a pat answer for all. It was pretty standard and devoid of a true understanding of man's participation of "covenant" relationships. Repentance.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[endure4salvation]

I don't debate with the Calvinists anymore, it's toooooo monotonous for me.

Uh, Suzanne, you do here all the time!

[tsth]

Dear Endure,

I haven't seen any 5 pointers here at all? I guess I've missed something?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[whatsitmean]

Pat answeres don't work for us or for them. The word of God is much too rich for that.

This was my answer to Owen:

Joh 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

Joh 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

From Gill

[tsth]

Here's an excerpt from one of my last debates with a Calvinist, although I am hesitant to continue in this thread, I would put this up just for commentary:

If you have "acted on" your faith and others have not, I just want to know how your mind deals with that. Your theology says that there are people that God worked equally on to save, yet said "no". I just want to know from those that believe as you do why that doesn't make you better than them. I know you don't think you're better than them. I just want to know how... logically... that can be the case.

Dear Eddie,

Here are the reasons why I believe there are not some chosen over others. Why I believe man has an obligation to "repent". Why I believe man has free will to make a decision to turn to Christ, and not away. I believe He calls all, but not all will come.

Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself take up his cross and follow me.

To deny yourself = free-will

John 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down, of my own accord.

1 Timothy 2:1-8

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercessions nd thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, tht we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle-I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?

There is a point where we must sit down and contemplate the cost. Are we willing to give up our lives of sin and darkness? Here is where we repent and follow Him. Is it worth the cost? Are we willing to give up those sins we cherish? That hate we have for another? Here is where I see that man has a decision to make, where as you do not see it that way, or at least it appears you don't. You proclaim that God takes our lives from us, He does not, He asks us to live as His when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior, but you must first decide you are willing to give away your earthly life, by repentance.

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

2 Thess. 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

I must say this discussion has helped me tremendously, I had not ever had to defend what I believe in this manner, I just never knew I would need to.

I am very hesitant to say I am chosen, and someone else is not, to me, it is like picking a place of honor at the table.

Luke 14:8 "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. :9 If so, the one who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this man your seat.'

In His Love,

Suzanne