Imagine

[John Lennon]

Proof? It cannot be proven one way or the other! And it's not a conclusion at all..even the greatests scientists in the world are not absolute on the question of the universe and it's real origin. The big-bang theory

or creationism can be squabbled about endlessly,but at the end of the day we just don't know.

You might not know because you remain in wilful ignorance. But that doesn't mean nobody knows.

Anyone with even half a brain can see that the universe must have a creator. They must also see the obvious fact that evolution is completely, utterly, ludicrous.

Do you think Carl Sagan was ignorant? Look..just because I admit I am an agnostic, does not mean I am ignorant. "Nature is all around us and for lack of a better word, is a miracle. The Earth evolved over billions of years into a place with everything in it to support life. If there is indeed a God...that makes him even more magnificent. If Earth is the only "GOD" we have!

I can no sooner prove there is no God any more than you can prove there is!

Just because you aren't convinced, that doesn't refute the proofs.

And no one...but no one can know what happens after we die.

Heaven and hell are states of mind and not to be taken literally in my humble opinion. If you have your faith and truly believe it in your heart about these things, you would not need any proof of anything! Your mind is made up right?

Well, you've obviously made up your mind that you can never know anything for sure.

[John Lennon]

Proof? It cannot be proven one way or the other! And it's not a conclusion at all..even the greatests scientists in the world are not absolute on the question of the universe and it's real origin. The big-bang theory

or creationism can be squabbled about endlessly,but at the end of the day we just don't know.

You might not know because you remain in wilful ignorance. But that doesn't mean nobody knows.

Anyone with even half a brain can see that the universe must have a creator. They must also see the obvious fact that evolution is completely, utterly, ludicrous.

Do you think Carl Sagan was ignorant? Look..just because I admit I am an agnostic, does not mean I am ignorant. "Nature is all around us and for lack of a better word, is a miracle. The Earth evolved over billions of years into a place with everything in it to support life. If there is indeed a God...that makes him even more magnificent. If Earth is the only "GOD" we have!

I can no sooner prove there is no God any more than you can prove there is!

Just because you aren't convinced, that doesn't refute the proofs.

And no one...but no one can know what happens after we die.

Heaven and hell are states of mind and not to be taken literally in my humble opinion. If you have your faith and truly believe it in your heart about these things, you would not need any proof of anything! Your mind is made up right?

Well, you've obviously made up your mind that you can never know anything for sure.

[John Lennon]

Woops! I added to Why so blind's post by accident.

[Gerioke]

What is faith to you JL?

If you were to have faith, should it not be a faith you can believe in 100% It seems to me that if you only have partial faith then the faith that you have would not hold much substance.

Yes/no?

[kittyjo]

One of the songs that inspired me growing up was Imagine by John Lennon..it was a song that crystalized his vision for the world. Imagine no heaven...no hell below us..above us only sky. I think of the song as a benign view that he developed as a result of things he had read and derived from comparative religion theories of Joseph Campbell and the Beatles' visits with the Maharishi. The dream Lennon had of people living in peace and simply sharing the world is what the song implies as if religion had never existed in the first place. A common goal that I would hope most people generally seek. Religion has driven people apart and caused division and intolerance in the world and the search for God and truth seems to have been lost in the confusion. Imagine a world that got it right and never invented religion but lived in virtual harmony! Is'nt that was Jesus would have wanted for the world anyway?-He was just a guy like Ghandi who spoke of brotherhood and loving one and other. Those are concepts even an atheist can grasp! This whole idea of being "saved" is up to us..we can save ourselves!

This idyllic world you seek has come and gone. It went under the name of

[Christian]

It is only through God, through His gift of His own Son that we may be saved.

Amen to that kittyjo!!! Can I get an Alleluia from the brothers and sisters !?!?!

[ted]

One of the songs that inspired me growing up was Imagine by John Lennon..it was a song that crystalized his vision for the world. Imagine no heaven...no hell below us..above us only sky. I think of the song as a benign view that he developed as a result of things he had read and derived from comparative religion theories of Joseph Campbell and the Beatles' visits with the Maharishi. The dream Lennon had of people living in peace and simply sharing the world is what the song implies as if religion had never existed in the first place. A common goal that I would hope most people generally seek. Religion has driven people apart and caused division and intolerance in the world and the search for God and truth seems to have been lost in the confusion. Imagine a world that got it right and never invented religion but lived in virtual harmony! Is'nt that was Jesus would have wanted for the world anyway?-He was just a guy like Ghandi who spoke of brotherhood and loving one and other. Those are concepts even an atheist can grasp! This whole idea of being "saved" is up to us..we can save ourselves!

Now, as to this real John Lennon.

Perhaps a bit of my past is needed for context.....

My first album that I ever bought on my own was The Beatles- Let It Be.

I was only ten years old, but the cover looked cooler than the Eagles' Hotel California, so I picked it up instead.

From that, I went on a journey of which almost my whole existence was based on John Lennon and the Beatles. I was a "John" guy, as opposed to Paul, once I learned more about the band. Paul, to me, was a showman without the heart and soul. John, to me, had the heart- and it was easy for me to identify with him, as opposed to Paul.

Thus then, one December morning, my mother woke me up early for school to tell me that John had been shot and killed the night before (no pun intended). I was then 14 years old and my life changed dramatically. I had an Aunt that lived in Yonkers, NY at the time (I lived in NH) and went down there that day (with my mother's blessing) to be closer. The next morning, my Aunt and I hopped the Hudson River Line down to GCS and then we walked to Central Park West and made our way through and with the crowd outside of the Dakota building. My Aunt, who was a dear Christian woman (still is, I should say) didn't really know much about what was going on, but simply knew that I was affected by it, and stayed with me through the day and into the night. Being there on Dec 10th, 1980 really helped in a small way. Through all of the singing of John's songs, the candles that night, the music, the tears, the mindset, it all kinda helped to get through it all.

When I got back home three days later, I was changed and a bit bitter. Why, if they had Chapman already, did they not simple fry him, for the sake of the millions of people he affected with his twisted work? If there was any thought of a God out there somewhere, it was wiped out of my mind then. How could a God let such a thing happen without exacting His justice?

Well, life went on, I reckon, and the real John Lennon's spirit and hopes went with me for many years. He was, after all, the world's most perfect person, in my mind. Who else would I pattern myself after?

Years and years passed, and with them, many thoughts. When we dare to take a good look at our heros, we take the risk of finding something we didn't want to see, true?

As much as it hurt to understand certain things, I prided myself on truth, rather than romantic fantasy. In other words, the man had his problems like anyone else. His spirit of love was many times over shadowed by a violent nature, prone to drink and drugs. Not much of a problem for me then, as I was pretty much under the same grip then. So, who could knock a guy for that, right?

But, still, from his childhood, through his career, and into his parenthood of his new son, Sean, a struggle can be seen outright. He was a man with a vision, yes, but also one which bore the frustrations of not being able to grasp the reality that his idea of peace could never be simply by asking for it and expecting mankind to follow.

The truth is, it may never happen until what is revealed in the Bible comes to be. For that, we must wait, but the lessons learned about John's life are there for us to see.

This man, which I so admired for most of my life, was simply that- a man. One who had trouble reconciling certain things in life, and carried with him the burden of his own making. Oh yes, it was peace that he believed in, but it was reality that kept him in check. We can say that he was all about peace, but we can also point to an early path of destruction in the days of early Beatledom in Germany, to a failed early marriage, to drugs, to alcohol, to fights, to a separation from Yoko for over a year in the early '70s, to pride, and to a host of other things which made this man what he was- a beautiful man who had his problems like anyone else.

His song of issue in this thread was born from seeking a perfect world which will never be- if left in the hands of mankind. The very human nature we struggle with would come out to play eventually, and he knew that. It was a snapshot of a day in the life of a man that knew it could not happen, but tried anyway. It was a culmination of thoughts which manifested itself into a song which expressed his desire for a lasting peace- but it was based on a false premise from the start. It wasn't the only song in which he asked for this lasting peace. Others made the same statement, as well: Give Peace a Chance is one example.

But, in other songs, he expressed the frustrations and pain of his version of the reality around him: Help, Revolution, Nowhere Man, etc...

Within him was the vision of peace, covered by the reality of mankind.

This said, today after 6 years of trusting God, I can see how people still struggle with reality and their inability to initiate change around them. Frustration grows when we cannot make others see how simple our plan of peace is, right? It's like chasing our tails around day after day. While we are busy trying to convince others of our visions and solutions, others still are cramming their versions down our own throats.

Through it all sounds the trumpet of Jesus and God's plan for us. So simple in structure, yet so hard to grasp and hold onto, yes? In His revealed Word, we have His plan laid out before our eyes, yet we still stand timid on the shore and ask ourselves if it is real enough to hold onto.

Simply put, there will be no solid proof to hold or grasp. Not in the way we understand logic, anyway. God has revealed to us His will, and now it is up to us to believe him or not. The reward is plain, and so is the punishment. Why do we still ask if it is the real deal?

For me, it simply comes down to trust and being able to distinguish between God, and what mankind has made God out to be. With what mankind has done with the message of God over the years, it's easy to see why so many do not trust.

If you do not trust in Jesus today, I encourage you to read what the Bible says and take a moment to digest what it means. If you give it an honest reckoning, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what you find.

Take heart and understand that mankind, when given the chance, will mess up everything which is placed in it's hands eventually.

The real John Lennon being no exception, of course, no matter how high we place him.

Keep your studies simple and don't read too much into it. If you don't understand something-pray. If you still have questions, consider yourself normal, for no man or woman will come to a complete understanding until Christ returns.

Ask your questions, but don't be afraid of the answers. They will, without a doubt, come right on time.

Peace,

t.

[secondeve]

Evolution is a false science, with no supporting evidence whatever.

Dinosaurs? The very fact that they exist begs the question of the Bible's validity. Carbon dating? The Earth is old - much older than a few thousand years. What about distinct patterns of evolutionary change - say in horses, from the earliest (eohippus) through five progressively larger species up until a kind of Prezwalski's Horse - all with fossil documentation - and then think of all the breeding changes that have happened since then! The very fact of selective breeding means that there are species alive today which couldn't possibly have been running around in the Garden of Eden, like dashunds or English Bulldogs.

Explain to me why else we share something like 97% of our DNA with chimps, if we're distinct species? Even without the missing hominoid link, you're not going to tell me that Adam and Eve looked like the earliest hominid skeletons we have, are you? That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob looked like cavemen?

If you believe in selective breeding and genetics, why is it so hard to comprehend the principle of evolution?

Macro-evolution is totally absent from the fossil record. All evolutionists have to support their mumbo jumbo is "missing links" which continue to do just that: remain missing.

What about archyopterix, indisputably the link between birds and reptiles? It was a feathered, claw-handed (it had arms), flying, bird-shaped creature with teeth in a beak, for crying out loud! How much more of a 'link' can you get?

Come to think of it, what about pentadactyl limbs - the fact that mammals as diverse as dolphins, humans, dogs and horses all share a characteristic bone structure, i.e, five digits in flipper, hand, hoof and paw?

From DNA, to cells, to tissues, to organs and organ systems, to entire creature, the sheer genius of life suggests meticulous design and creation, and defies the notion of random or semi-random changes over time.

You're looking at the end result of life, not the process, when you make judgements about meticulous design. Neither are you looking at the timescale. Perhaps an anology might help. Imagining that human society could continue for a million years into the future, can you imagine how different that society would be from the current one? Could you imagine things getting there in a single step? Look at something like the evolution of technology. We started out with nothing more than fire. Now we have computers. You're in America, and I'm in Australia, and we're talking in an intangible medium made up of electricity, zeroes, ones and lines and lines of code. Looking between flintstones and computers, do you suppose that there must - logically - be a link in the middle, some few thousand years of intermediary trial and error which led, gradually, from one to the other? The cavemen didn't start out with computers in mind; neither did Thomas Eddison. Little steps with lots of cul-de-sacs and backtracking before we get to the present day. The problem with hindsight is that it encourages us to see the march of progress as a straight line leading to exactly where we are now - but the journey itself was far from meticilous, perfect, driven, uniform purpose.

One can observe various species of butterfly, for example, and find the markings on their bodies differ from species to species, forming groupings or curves on one species' which cannot be derived from simple changes to or differentiation of the curves and markings on the other species' wings. i.e. the curve on one species is logarithm curve, while the curve on the other species is geometric, etc. Meaning no "small change over time" could give rise to this difference. The entire gene would have had to be replaced in only one generation. Similar arguments apply for many other traits across all species.

One might also look at the Galapagos Island finches, and note that changes in environment directly affect the development of physical characteristics in certain species. Evolution? You decide.

Need I address the problem of the purported Abiogenesis and the scientific impossibility of "panspermia"? Any life coming from outer space would be bombarded to oblivion cosmic radiation and other radiation.

The impossibility of the first amino acids forming in supernovae and novae explosions, since chemistry does not occur at such high temperatures? Indeed electrons do not even bond to the atom at such temperatures.

Where on Earth have you got hold of the idea that life developed in space - in a nova explosion, no less! I highly doubt that any evolutionary scientists has ever proposed something so ludicrous. Life developed on Earth. Look it up.

the only reasonable conclusion is that Almighty God created this life.

I beg to differ. The only reasonable conclusion is that, while we don't know for certain, all visible indicators point to evolution. Incidentally, at the start of your post, you quoted Bible verses to prove your point. Why? That's hardly an argument, if what we're debating is, in a way, the validity of the Bible. "The Bible is true because it says it is," isn't an argument - it's a circular statement. I might just as well say, "Evolution is true because it says it is." Would you accept that? I doubt it. Of course, if the reason you're quoting in that fashion is because the Bible can rely only on itself to be proven true - rather than on external evidence - then I think you're hurting your case in a whole different way.

Edited September 6, 2006 by secondeve

[ted]

Of course!

I should have known that a thread dealing with the Lennon song Imagine would turn into a creation/ evolution debate....

How could I not see the connection??

t.

[secondeve]

Of course!

I should have known that a thread dealing with the Lennon song Imagine would turn into a creation/ evolution debate....

How could I not see the connection??

t.

Touche!

I plead Marie's line from The Aristocats:

"A lady doesn't start fights - but she can finish them!"