Total Depravity

[endure4salvation]

I have been told over and over that all humans are born spiritually dead and have no ability to do good. I wonder if a compassionate God will send all babies to hell, simply for being born.

What sort of verses are there to support this? I have read verses that seem to indicate the opposite. What are your thoughts?

[RGR]

It's called, though I don't have the actual verses in front of me, The Age of Accountability. A child has no true knowledge of right or wrong until they get much older. When you become old enough to know the difference, then is when the Heaven/Hell choice begins. But, IMO, there are many mentally ill/retarted people who never reach accountability.

God bless,

Ronald

[Adstar]

What did God say?

Deuteronomy 1:39

"Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

This is when the tribes of Israel where in the desert and refused to go into the Promised Land because of fear of it's inhabitants. God decided to punish the people by forcing them to wonder in the desert for 40 years so that all of the generation that had refused to enter the Promised Land would die and never enter it. But as he says above about their little ones

"who today have no knowledge of good and evil"

This is the crucial statement from God about the little ones (BABIES) they are innocent.

So babies that die do go to heaven because they are like Adam and Eve before they obtained knowledge of good and evil.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Oh and here

[ColleenLovesMischief]

No those little ones were never given the choice of heaven or hell. They are innocent and in my Fathers arms. There used to be a good song out years ago called Jesus rocking chair. The chorus was:

Jesus has a rocking chair and He holds that prescious baby with oh such tender care. He takes the place of mom and dad He's the greatest parent a child could have. Don't worry about the Children there Jesus has a rocking chair.

Just a though of comfort for those who have lost babies close to them. :prayer

[Guest rosered]

hello all whom seek the LORD,

as 3 are a signifigant number in the bible we have 3 parts flesh/spirit/ soul ecc.12 7 then the dust will return to the earth and the spirit will return to GOD who gave it vanity of vanities says the preacher...

the flesh is being used to reveal the man of sin /son of perdition,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,from what posses the soul/self

remember how the LORD destroyed the earth the earth the first time for mans thoughts were evil conntinually?

the mind of man is compared to a wilderness and you find salvation ,, or become a captive of the evil one to do the works that manifest through the flesh,,,, everyone sees this...... the world judges it .... and the spirit witness to it .....

this shows what SPIRIT YOU ARE OF .... the Holy Spirit bears witness of OUR HEAVENLY FATHER and HIS SON JESUS CHRIST,,,, I jOHN 5; 17-18 ALL

unrighteousness is sin. and there is sin not leading to death

we know that whosever is born of GOD does not sin; but he who is born of GOD keeps himself and the wicked one does not touch him

we know that we are of GOD and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.....

1 john 4;7 for there are three that bear witness in heaven the FATHER and the the WORD[JESUSCHRIST] and the HOLY SPIRIT and these three are one

and there are three that bear witness on the earth the SPIRIT the water and the blood and these three agree as one .....................

so all flesh is cursed it is the dust in gen, 3 if you will read it all you will see that GOD cursed the serpent only and the ground[ dust of the earth flesh],,, GOD cursed the ground for our sakes, as not to stay in a sinful state , the serpent is cursed the eat the dust [ flesh],,,, but laid conditions upon man and woman......i hope you can recive this and read it for yourselves... so all babies are given back to GOD who gave life in the first place,,,, this is what i have been given for the truth and the SPIRIT has witnessed it to my own heart and soul,,,

there is much more to recive if our hearts be willing,,,,,,,,,,hope this will bless someone as it did me ,,,,

FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND ,,,,,,,,,his love and peace to all.....rose

[IslandRose]

I copied this from another board with permission. It builds more upon what Adstar was saying.

God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because they did not have enough understanding to reject God. --

Deu 1:39--Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where understanding is being developed.

Isa 7:16--For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right

or wrong and are there fore not culpable.

Rom 9:11--For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ...

Now, here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev  20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their lack of understanding?  Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving and teaching of the law.

Neh 8:2-- And Ezra the priest brought the law before  the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. 

God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is necessary for redemption.

Isaiah 28:9-- Whom shall he teach knowledge?  and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

James 4:17--Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

IR :il:

[endure4salvation]

Here are a few verses I found:

Romans 7:9-11

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.  I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.  For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

2 Samuel 12:21-23

His servants said to [King David], "Why are you acting this way?  While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"  He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept.  I thought 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.'  But now that he is dead, why should I fast?  Can I bring him back again?  I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Isaiah 7:15-16 (could this be a prophecy concerning Jesus?)

He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.  But before the boy knows to reject the wrong and choose the right...

Are these verses dealing with the issue of this topic?

[Adstar]

endure4salvation

Romans 7

9I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

I was going to include this scripture in my first reply but I thought the direct words from God himself would suffice. But yes Paul is clearly saying that he once was alive without the law this was when he was a little one. Once Paul came to the understanding of Good and Evil his carnal nature came to the fore.

2 Samuel 12

21Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

That

[godrulz]

Catholics teach that we are born again at the sacrament of infant baptism. This deals with 'original sin' inherited from Adam (?Augustinian roots).

If original sin is true, I would worry that babies could go to hell. I reject this doctrine in favor of a view that says babies are born morally innocent. They go to heaven based on their non-rejection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a love relationship, based on free will choice. The atonement provides provision for those not morally accountable yet. We are born with physical depravity and a fleshly bent to sin and sickness. We are not totally morally depraved. God asks us to repent and trust/obey. It would be unjust and unloving to command us to do something we are unable to do.

[homebild]

Catholics teach that we are born again at the sacrament of infant baptism. This deals with 'original sin' inherited from Adam (?Augustinian roots).

If original sin is true, I would worry that babies could go to hell. I reject this doctrine in favor of a view that says babies are born morally innocent. They go to heaven based on their non-rejection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a love relationship, based on free will choice. The atonement provides provision for those not morally accountable yet. We are born with physical depravity and a fleshly bent to sin and sickness. We are not totally morally depraved. God asks us to repent and trust/obey. It would be unjust and unloving to command us to do something we are unable to do.

Unfortunatley, Paul in Romans uses the very fact that infants DIE as PROOF of original sin and that since babies 'die' they too must be concluded under the sin of Adam.

Romans 5

"12

4 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 --

13

for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

14

But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come. "

Paul also argues in Romans that even if one was never exposed to the Law at all, they are still accountable for sin. He explains that gentiles who sin apart from the Law will die apart from the Law.

Romans 2:

"11

4 There is no partiality with God.

12

5 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.

13

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

14

For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. "

Paul continues to write, that 'all have sinned' and come short of God's glory.

There is no exception for children.

Romans 3

"...for we have already brought the charge against Jews and Greeks alike that they are all under the domination of sin,

10

as it is written: "There is no one just, not one,

11

there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.

12

All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.

13

Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips;

14

their mouths are full of bitter cursing.

15

Their feet are quick to shed blood;

16

ruin and misery are in their ways,

17

and the way of peace they know not.

18

There is no fear of God before their eyes."

The OT verses alleging that children are 'innocent' doen't really say that. These verses merely say that they may be IGNORANT of their sin, but ignorance does not excuse ANYONE from sin's consequences.

Are men only held accountable for their sin once they have heard the Gospel? Or are men shown a way out of their sin BY the Gospel? The second is obviously true.

While the theory of "Total Depravity" is just plain wrong...there is ENOUGH sin to condemn even the smallest child because he remains Adam's seed. That all men die, even children, is Paul's answer for why even those who sin apart from the Law of Moses die, even if they by nature do the things the Law required. This is the inherited sin of Adam that is apart from conscious sin. It is the very sin nature within us. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners.

It is also quite scriptural to practice infant baptism for the remission of sin, for as Paul also writes, it is the faith of a believing parent that makes a child clean before God, and not simply because the child is a child. Infant baptism is a practice illustrating the faith of the parent and that faith covering their child. Unfortunatley no such 'cover' extends to children of disbelieving parents.

1 Corinthians 7

"14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. "

As the psalmist stated: "I was altogether conceived in sin...."

Psalm 51

"5 Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. "