5 Point Calvanism

[Guest spurgeon's apprentice]

Sue,

First let me say Hello to everyone as I am new to this Board. And yes I am a 100%, full fledged 5 point Calvanist for those who think such a person does not exist. Also, No, I do not "follow" Calvin, Luther or any other person just for the sake of following someone as I see a few people have brought up 1Cor 1:12-13. I follow the teachings of Scripture - period. Calvanism is just a label for a set of doctines structured in such a way as to help us better understand the deeper teachings of Scripture. Now, before someone starts sounding all holier than thou saying, 'well we shouldn't use labels,' or 'I don't like labels'. Let me say that we wouldn't have a society if we didn't label things. Everything has a label because its how we identify what things are. So anyway -

One thing I've noticed in this thread since your first post, is that through all the debate, no one has answered your original question which was: "If you could help by supplying me with scriptures that contrast or dispute 5 point Calvanism, I would appreciate it."

I know there are a bunch of verses used but I'm not sure which one's they are off hand. However, the primary one they use is the most popular verse in all Scripture, John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." Arminians usually base their argument here on the first half of the verse, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes..."

So lets take a closer look at that verse for a minute. Arminians will say "see it says, 'whoever believes'. However, this begs the question, 'who are those who will believe?' Does it mean every single individual person will believe. I think we both know the answer to that. The only one's who will believe are the elect. Those chosen by God before the foundation of the world. You may be asking why? What if someone is not one of the elect and decides he wants to come to Christ? Unfortunately, this will never happen. Since we are all dead in our trespasses and sins, as Paul says in Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." So the question becomes, "How can a dead person do anything?" According to this verse, before we were saved, we were spiritually dead and heading toward a physical death and a hopeless eternity. As Romans 3:10-12 says, "...as it is written, 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

A good physical example of this scenario would be when Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead (John 11:38-44). When Jesus approached Lazarus' tomb, Lazarus did not get up, walk out and say "ok, Jesus I now accept you as my personal Lord and Savior, please come into my heart and save me," then lay back down and wait for Jesus to resurect him. Instead, it was Jesus who had to take the initiative by calling Lazarus back from the dead saying, "Lazarus come forth." This is a great picture of a sinner who has his heart regenerated by Christ. It is not until this regeneration, our being called by God, that we are able to realize that we are sinners and have offended the Most Holy God. Once our hearts and eyes have been opened, then and only then are we able to repent and be forgiven.

Sorry this was so long. I noticed some people recommending some good books to research. One that really helped open my eyes was a book called A Journey in Grace by Richard Belcher. Its written as a novel about a young preacher boy just starting out at his new pastorate and he's asked if he's a Calvanist. Since he doesn't know what a Calvanist is, he begins an intensive search to find out the truth. A great book because its an easy read and it explains the Doctrines of Grace point by point.

Hope this post has been of some benefit.

God bless

Robert

[Thaddaeus]

Christ's Free Servant,

If you could help by supplying me with scriptures that contrast or dispute 5 point Calvanism, I would appreciate it.

Calvinism is a very systematic theological view. It is so consistant, that if one can show even just one point is not scriptural, the whole deck falls. I know that there are several, some even on this thread so far, that claim being 2 point, 4 point, or even 7 point, Calvinist. It is an impossibility. If one does not accept it as Calvin developed it, you are just not a calvinist. You are something totally different, not a Calvinists.

Having stated that, here are just a very few that will show that Calvinism cannot stand the test of Scripture.

the following verses clearly show that Christ died and saved all of mankind from the fall. Rom 5:18-19. Rom 11:32. Two verses that are consecutive and clearly delineates the Salvation of Christ for every man and the salvation of our souls which is dependent upon man to believe.

They are John 6:verse 39 which is the salvation of mankind from the fall. Christ redeeming all of mankind from death. From the curse of Adam, the judgement of death through Adam. Then, of all those Christ saved from the fall, those that believe and see, they shall also be resurrected to live everlastingly with HIM.

Col 1:20 puts the entire universe into the scope of Christ being the gift to the World. Christ redeemed the world. Makes it impossible to have an elect only saved by Christ. this fits in with the first part of John 3:16. Christ saved the Cosmos, (world) so that those that believe might not perish but have everlasting life (with HIM). This is the very same sequence of John 6: 39-40.

Calvinism works and can be maintained ONLY if one picks and chooses the verses that will support the isolated tenets. But within the entire context of Scripture, Calvinism falls in all points, and in any single point.

[firehill]

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

Can anyone provide just one scripture that says we are born with 'the' or 'a' sin nature? I mean an interpretation is not the same thing as what is actualy written. I happen to believe in OSAS and free-will and that neither are at odds with eachother. I also am in agreement with part of Calvinism.

[eric]

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

Can anyone provide just one scripture that says we are born with 'the' or 'a' sin nature? I mean an interpretation is not the same thing as what is actualy written. I happen to believe in OSAS and free-will and that neither are at odds with eachother. I also am in agreement with part of Calvinism.

Well you could try Rom.5:12 for starters. So if you are only in agreement, with part of Calvinism, perhaps you might be only in agreement in part of the bible, which wouldn't surprise me.

As for me I'm not a believer in either calvinism or free will. I mean to say if I don't believe in one, or even two, of the points of t.u.l.i.p, why should I believe any of them. Who knows, Arminius may have been a better student of theology than Calvin.

[Joshua-777]

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

Can anyone provide just one scripture that says we are born with 'the' or 'a' sin nature? I mean an interpretation is not the same thing as what is actualy written. I happen to believe in OSAS and free-will and that neither are at odds with eachother. I also am in agreement with part of Calvinism.

Romans 7:13-25

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God

[Joshua-777]

So why am I supposed to accept this as fact, just because the early reformed church decided it? I would simply respond that they are wrong. I have my own copy of scripture, have read it for myself, and disagree with the conclusions of those you are quoting.

I Corinthians 1:10-17: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe

[firehill]

Well you could try Rom.5:12 for starters. So if you are only in agreement, with part of Calvinism, perhaps you might be only in agreement in part of the bible, which wouldn't surprise me.

Am I to understand that expressed Calvinism is without error like the Bible?

Romans 5:12

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

[firehill]

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

Can anyone provide just one scripture that says we are born with 'the' or 'a' sin nature? I mean an interpretation is not the same thing as what is actualy written. I happen to believe in OSAS and free-will and that neither are at odds with eachother. I also am in agreement with part of Calvinism.

Romans 7:13-25

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God

[eric]

[Guest Biblicist]

My husband and I are attending a PCA Church. We like the preaching and our grandchildren attend there and we like going to church with them. We are non-denominational, meaning we don't claim any denomination, not even non-denominational churches. So, we just go where we can serve God and be fed spiritually.

This weekend we attended an Inquirer's Seminar for the purpose of learning what the church believes, practices, etc. We are happy with the teaching that comes from the pulpit and have begun to involve ourselves in the ministries of the church. Nonetheless, we are struggling with the whole 5 point Calvanist thing.

I have the scriptures supporting this theology. What I'm looking for are scriptures that dispute this theology point by point. We believe that we should test everything we hear, and we want to test this against the Word of God. In order to do that, we want to look at both sides to the issue.

If you could help by supplying me with scriptures that contrast or dispute 5 point Calvanism, I would appreciate it.

Please, no arguing. Thanks so much!

I'd say, believing in the complete sovereignty of God is of utmost importance. How much control do you believe He exercises? Complete or partial or none at all.