5 Point Calvanism

[BurnForChrist]

It can be a contentious subject, but I have seen it successfully debated without acrimony a few times. Of course the ones discussing it were all jokesters...

Presbyterian churches and the Reformed churches hold to calvinism even more so than primitive baptists because calvin was also into paedobaptism, baptists by definition are not.

the five points: (Acronymn=TULIP... I've also seen it called the doctrines of Grace and the acronymn GRACE also)

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

2. U - Unconditional Election: There is nothing, not even a decision, that you can do which makes you worthy of salvation, therefore salvation is given based on God's good pleasure and not because we've done anything at all.

3. L - Limited Atonement: Jesus work on the cross was "enough" for all persons, but not effective for all.

4. I - Irressistable Grace: Your will is bound to whoever controls your nature. Before you are given your new heart, you are bound to sin and cannot then choose God. After your new heart, you are bound to Christ and thus unable not to choose Him.

5. P - Perseverance of the Saints - Those who come to true faith will endure until the end, because your will is bound to Christ.

Of course, the opposite of this would be "Arminianism" with the Acronym "DAISY" but I'll have to look for the meaning of that acronym...

I can supply scriptural support for TULIP, if necessary. I'll leave some else to defend DAISY.

The only criticism I would have for TULIP is "U - Unconditional Election" and I am sure that this has been brought up alot when discussing the 5 points, but if I am interpreting this correctly, The chief implication of this doctrine is that God is responsible for souls that are lost in hell, but how is it in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 & 2 Peter 3:9 God desires all men to be saved?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And if God has arbitrarily predetermined every individual's ultimate destiny, aren't we essentialy robots, incapable of affecting our eternal future?

Edited March 25, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[Guest Biblicist]

In reguards to the 1 Timothy and 2 Peter passages. They do not say that all will be saved. It says, He does not wish that any would perish and that God desires all men to be saved. Obviously we know that not all are.

The question is. . . Is God completely in control or not?

Isn't it possible that the two coinside? That our "free will" and God's sovereign guidance in our lives are synonomous.

We can not ignore the fact that the term "elect" or "chosen ones" is used many times in the Bible, Old and New testaments.

It is easy to think "what does this person say or what does that person say" but the one words we should be concerned with are God's word. The Bible interprets itself.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul [or Calvin, or Arminius] said was true.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly

[rtwo]

In reguards to the 1 Timothy and 2 Peter passages. They do not say that all will be saved. It says, He does not wish that any would perish and that God desires all men to be saved. Obviously we know that not all are.

The question is. . . Is God completely in control or not?

Isn't it possible that the two coinside? That our "free will" and God's sovereign guidance in our lives are synonomous.

We can not ignore the fact that the term "elect" or "chosen ones" is used many times in the Bible, Old and New testaments.

It is easy to think "what does this person say or what does that person say" but the one words we should be concerned with are God's word. The Bible interprets itself.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul [or Calvin, or Arminius] said was true.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly

[BurnForChrist]

In reguards to the 1 Timothy and 2 Peter passages. They do not say that all will be saved. It says, He does not wish that any would perish and that God desires all men to be saved. Obviously we know that not all are.

We can not ignore the fact that the term "elect" or "chosen ones" is used many times in the Bible, Old and New testaments.

How is it possible that it is coinsided? If free will defined is:

1. Free and independent choice; voluntary decision.

How could they coexist? Unless God the Father foreknew our decision of hearing the Truth, and then choose us to hear it, and be made justified by our Faith, not that we deserve the Precious blood of Jesus in any way.

1 Peter 1:2 "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Now you see what Peter just said in v.2? "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." If the Lord knows that we would except this priceless gift, that we in no way deserve" then wouldn't he predestine our lives so that one day we would hear the Gospel and believe it? according to God the Father's foreknowledge of it?

Romans 8:28-29 " 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. "

Edited March 25, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[EricH]

My advice is test the T as hard as you can against God's word. if you take that down the whole thing goes

This is the foundation of Calvinism. If we are not totally depraved then the whole understanding crumbles. If it is true then the next point can be examined.

LT

Good point Larry, first you have to define totally depraved., which is to me, anyway, is to be so wickardly evil, so grossly demonised, that you are beyond redemption, which is contrary to God's purpose to create man in the first place.

But that is not Total Depravity as defined by the bible and Calvin himself

Thank you EricH, so how is total depravity defined by the bible and Calvin himself

Total depravity simply means that every aspect of the person is somehow touched by sin. As a result, people are not capable of pleasing God. that does not mean that they are as bad as they could be, or that they are incapable of doing any good thing. It is just that even the good that they do is impacted by sin.

Dallas Willard has a great definition. He says that people will do good, until it somehow benefits them to do bad.

[apothanein kerdos]

Total depravity simply means that every aspect of the person is somehow touched by sin. As a result, people are not capable of pleasing God. that does not mean that they are as bad as they could be, or that they are incapable of doing any good thing. It is just that even the good that they do is impacted by sin.

Dallas Willard has a great definition. He says that people will do good, until it somehow benefits them to do bad.

The above is an excellent description of Total Depravity as described in Calvin's Institutes.

As for what Willard says...I would have to disagree. Man will commit evil even when it is not beneficial to us. It is because we are totally depraved.

[EricH]

Total depravity simply means that every aspect of the person is somehow touched by sin. As a result, people are not capable of pleasing God. that does not mean that they are as bad as they could be, or that they are incapable of doing any good thing. It is just that even the good that they do is impacted by sin.

Dallas Willard has a great definition. He says that people will do good, until it somehow benefits them to do bad.

The above is an excellent description of Total Depravity as described in Calvin's Institutes.

As for what Willard says...I would have to disagree. Man will commit evil even when it is not beneficial to us. It is because we are totally depraved.

Good point

[Guest Biblicist]

From my understanding of the Bible there is no human free will, in the way that some may consider it. There are three kinds of will, all of them God's Will.

Under the umbrella [if you will] of God's complete Sovereignty are these three wills.

God's Decreed Will - That which God decrees

God's Permissive Will - That which God permits

God's Revealed Will - That portion of His will which God reveals to us through His Word.

If one must believe in man's free will then I one must understand that under God's Permissive Will he is completely sovereign to allow certain things for His ultimate glory. If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occour outside of God's sovereign control then we cannot trust him. Because if there is one. . . there will be others.

One theologin wrote: "In creating man with a free will and making him a partner in the rule of the earth, God limited himself. He made Himself dependant on what man would do. Man by His prayer would hold the measure of what God would do in blessing."

God limited himself?

Rather: In His sovereignty, "[God] permits, for reasons known only to himself, people to act contrairy to and in defiance of His revealed will. But He never permits them to act contary to His sovereign will."

This is how "man's free will" and God's sovereign control can, in fact, coinside. And that is why Satan rebelled against God. God permitted it for His ultimate glory. We do not know the bigger picture, God does. We can not in any way understand what His perfect plan is. Aren't you glad He is in control of that?

God will not pursue His own glory at the expense of His people's good.

God will never seek our own good at the expense of His glory.

[Neopatriarch]

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Does this mean that God can desire and intend for some things to come to pass that never do come to pass? Is God an eternally miserable being who is frustrated because he cannot prevent so many sinners from going to hell? It's hard for me to believe this is an accurate picture of who God is.

In Christ,

Neopatriarch

[larryt]

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Does this mean that God can desire and intend for some things to come to pass that never do come to pass? Is God an eternally miserable being who is frustrated because he cannot prevent so many sinners from going to hell? It's hard for me to believe this is an accurate picture of who God is.

In Christ,

Neopatriarch

The God of the bible is most definitely the Sovereign Lord of all. We are not commanded to understand all thing, though understanding is good. But we get things reversed. We are commanded to BELIEVE God and OBEY Him. Yes God says come let us reason together, but that does not mean that we are to question God.(Rom 9:20)

Some here seem to say that they won't believe until they understand. I say believe and you will understand.

The ALL in the above verses does not have to mean all in the sense of every single human being but in the sense that EVERY ONE OF THE ELECT will come to God.

Again it is clear that scripture says that God chooses/elects people and does not choose others. Read Rom. 9 several times.

Ro 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ro 9:14