5 Point Calvanism

[Thaddaeus]

Biblicist,

Because I do not agree with you, you feel it is necessary and right to be rude to me?

I didn't know that pointing out what it has always meant, relative to Scripture was rude. You can adopt any view you wish. But if you are claiming it means the same as the Bible actually teaches and uses these terms, and does not align with the understanding of 2000 years, I would think it incombent that it be explained that way. I would be remiss if I failed to do so.

Only man has fragmented the Bible into hundreds of faiths, hundreds of doctrines all based on their intellectual ability, reasoning powers to determine by their interpretation of what the Bible might have meant. Its like doing math, then purposely failing to check your math with the answers in the back of the book. The answers have existed for 2000 years.

do not change scripture to align with my view, I change my view so it aligns with scripture. Nor do I divide up the Word into segments to fit my preconcieved notions of what I think, I believe that verses, chapters and books can not be translated without the whole of Scripture as the context

That is the point I made. You are doing it in a vaccum. You have isolated a written text of only a portion of the Gospel as it was transmitted to the Early Church. The Bible is consistant within itself, but it cannot be excised from the full historical record which gave birth to the part we call the Bible.

I can understand why you do not see it at this point, I am sure that God has not chosen to reveal this to you at this time. That's OK. God reveals to those as he sees fit in His time, not ours.

I do not only not see it, but totally have accepted the view of the Apostolic Truth as once revealed and preserved for all men, for all time. It was given once for all. There is no need to redefine, to speculate, to interpret a portion of the Gospel. It only has meaning when taken as a whole. To understand to whom it was given, for whom and why.

If it was meant to be lived then why would we, as Christians, 2000 years after All Truth was given, need to guess, to speculate what it might mean for us, to try to figure it all out. To figure how we should live our lives IN Christ. Christians have believed, practiced the Gospel for 2000 years unchanged. It is unchanged because Christ said that He would preserve His Body. The Holy Spirit would guard and protect that Truth within the Body of Christ. Do you believe it?

Since you can not have a conversation without resorting to insults, I do not see a need to continue it.

A niffty copout.

[mrs]

christ's free here are some scripture to dispute calvinism,they are off the top of my head so i might leave a few out.1st tim 2:4 says that God want all to be saved(not just the elect)2nd pet 3:9 says God want none to perish(therefore he did not ''predestionate'' any one to go to hell as taught by calvinist)1st john 2:2 says Jesus died for the whole world (not just for the elect)and john 3:16 say God so love the WORLD that he sent his son.That means every one.acts 10:34,romans 2:11 col3:25 and 1st pet 1:17 all say that God is no respecter of persons ruling out any belief of predestination lastly romans 11:22,heb6:4-6 and 2nd pet 2:20-22 all say you can turn from your salvation after recieving it.CALVINISM is not biblical it is completely false and very dangerous turning the true pure love of God into perversion.Teaching that he forces himself on some and denies others that seek him.

Onwings has your knowledge of calvinism come only from such as Dave Hunt's book? Because I say again, your understanding of it's beliefs is wrong, and this is especially reflected in the statements I highlighted above. I would encourage you to study Calvinism as presented by those who believe it themselves. A good reference would be Sinners in the hands of a good God by David Clotfelter, written largely from his own experience of first hating and then understanding and believing the truth of Calvinism.

Any true Calvinist would be the first to tell you that predestination has absolutely zero to do with the person, it is nothing in them, no goodness, no beauty, no virtue in them that caused them to be elected. Rather it is 100% of grace which was unmerited and undeserved. A Calvinist is all about grace - for they recognize that salvation is nothing but extravagant, amazing mercy and grace. I can't reiterate this enough, yet it is hard to find words to describe just how amazing what God does in salvation, really is.

Your last statement is totally against what calvinism believes. Salvation and grace is not forcing at all, it is total love and kindness. To think that God would reach down and stop me in my headlong run to destruction, open my eyes to His beauty, and save me is no force at all, but gentle love. Also I thought you said in another thread that we agreed man is evil and wouldn't choose or seek God on his own. Therefore no one is going to be seeking Him unless He is drawing them; and if they were seeking He would never refuse them for He commands that seeking and repentance!

Instead of being up in arms over doctrines which have been taught in the church for thousands of years, take some time to learn truly of what they teach of God and His ways first. You believe terrible things about doctrine which does nothing but exalt God's attributes and seeks to give Him the true glory He is due.

[mrs]

God is drawing us ALL,it is up to mans own will to accept or deny His invatation.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

oh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

oh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

oh 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Notice that He has sheep, sheep that the Father specifically gave Him, and He knows them specifically. Also note that no one can come unless the Father draws him, and those drawn are the sheep. Also note that He tells some that they do not believe because they are not his sheep.