Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

About the claims of witnesses...

I learned at a young age that if I were going to lie I would need to make sure the story couldn't be confirmed. The point being, I wouldn't claim multiple witnesses unless they could validate my story. It makes no sense for the Gospel writers to claim all these witnesses if they could not in fact be produced.

The tests for truth weren't the same as the are these days. Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

There are other reasons to think that the gospels were written later, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, some more convincing than others. I don't think stories about hundreds of people who witnessed these things at that late date was for the purpose of making them seem more true. I don't think that that was a problem by then. I think it is only nowadays that such demands for evidence are important. I really believe that the early Christians circa the late first and early second century understood that these things had been written more recently than when they actually happened, and believed they were true through faith.

Could be wrong, but the writers of the gospels never identify themselves. I don't know who placed the titles of the books where they were (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and even Christian historians have to speculate about this.

Just my 2 cents.

k

[khalou]

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Personally? I think those things are important. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity brings out the best in some people, and that some need it more than they need athiesm. But I do believe that there are things to be gained from athiesm, too.

I thank you for your point of view Secondeve,

yet I am alittle confused athiests already believe they are in control of their own

destiny, they freely divorse without concerns for spirtitual repercussion.

Everything you listed aside from gay marriage (minus a few states) they

can do and have been doing freely. All those things are what atheism is

offering to a Christian if they turn away from God?

Atheism is not giving these freedoms, those freedoms are already given to all!

I believe God gave us all the freedom to choose, and I don't begrudge anyone

that right but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the choices some make.

Yes it is a Christians belief in God that guides us in many of the choices we

make, and we are happy to have His guidence!

Why does atheism persist to begrudge us the right to disagree with them?

They can't just say fine you believe in God and I don't that is your right,

nope they can't do that instead they make movies and write books trying

to disprove God.

God BLess!

Butting in, but speaking as a person who's been in both worlds, there are pluses and minuses to each.

The biggest difference I noticed, and I can't overemphasize the hugeness of this, is that the entire universe changes when you lose your faith. Imagine living in a universe that was created by a Figure that loves you more than any other entity is capable of loving you. Matter of fact, the very definition of love is this Creator. One of his incarnations is His Son, Jesus, who is with you always- always standing there within reach. Always insuring that whatever happens to you is within your ability to handle (my yoke is light). If you falter, or fall, He will forgive you if you love Him, and put you on the right path. Another incarnation is the Holy Spirit that can illuminate the Word of God and amplify the transcendental wisdom for your human mind to the point that whenever you go to the Word, you will find an answer, which is sometimes "you are wrong", but is never "I don't love you anymore".

Now, imagine a universe that came about my natural means where there is nothing but you, the world, and those few human beings that you might share a connection with. When you are alone, you are alone! There is nothing that insures that justice is done in your life, nor is there any method of knowing truth beyond your own animal ability according to your own perceptions which are limited to the five senses, and your natural intellect. There is no central authority that can intercede in your disagreements and finally say what is right except the law, and the law loves no one and is also limited by the animal mind.

It took me a very long time to get used to the silence of being an atheist.

My Dad, my Big Brother, and my Teacher had all left me. They'd always been there before, every second of my life. I was too old to get used to that immediately and went through some changes.

But now, I can see the benefits of this reality, this universe. I won't go into them here, because I'm not interested in promoting atheism here. I will say that, while I miss that former comfort, I prefer this one at this time. It isn't about what I can now get away with that I couldn't formerly- that's not what it's about. Matter of fact, I don't get to be forgiven so easily anymore, and so must be very careful how I live my life as far as my fellow man is concerned. They're all I've got and I'm certainly not going to hurt them in any way if I can help it.

I hope there is some new perspective in this post for y'all.

k

[artsylady]

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Freedom? Sexual behaviour is very serious. It has the ability to create life and take life. Would you encourage youth to engage in this sexual 'freedom'? People are dying agonizing deaths and going through abortions as we speak because they experienced sexual 'freedom.'

Do you know what it's like to be married and fully trust your spouse and trust God that this relationship is special and sacred? It sure doesn't feel like prison. It feels like security. Like love. Something you can trust and take great comfort in.

We do have the freedom to watch whatever we want but most of us choose to guard our minds. I have a non Christian friend who watched a movie called 8 Milimeter starring Nicolas Cage and was haunted by the images she could not get out of her mind. I also had a non Christian friend who said that after watching The Exorcist back in the 70's or 80's felt uneasy for months - both him and his wife.

I also once decided I had the 'freedom' to watch Gothica starring Halle Barry. My husband and I were both left feeling very very disturbed that evening and neither of us could sleep. We prayed and asked forgiveness for watching this film and immediately I could not recall the movie and fell asleep peacefully. To this day, I can't recall a single thing about the movie, except that Halle Barry is in it.

I truly felt 'freedom' when I believe God took away my memories of the film I'd just seen.

We just have different ideas on freedom.

For many of us who hadn't been Christians all of our lives, the 'freedoms' you describe here sound more like a bondage that we would not ever want to return to. I'll take freedom from all of that that I've found in Christ any day over all of that.

[Floatingaxe]

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Personally? I think those things are important. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity brings out the best in some people, and that some need it more than they need athiesm. But I do believe that there are things to be gained from athiesm, too.

I thank you for your point of view Secondeve,

yet I am alittle confused athiests already believe they are in control of their own

destiny, they freely divorse without concerns for spirtitual repercussion.

Everything you listed aside from gay marriage (minus a few states) they

can do and have been doing freely. All those things are what atheism is

offering to a Christian if they turn away from God?

Atheism is not giving these freedoms, those freedoms are already given to all!

I believe God gave us all the freedom to choose, and I don't begrudge anyone

that right but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the choices some make.

Yes it is a Christians belief in God that guides us in many of the choices we

make, and we are happy to have His guidence!

Why does atheism persist to begrudge us the right to disagree with them?

They can't just say fine you believe in God and I don't that is your right,

nope they can't do that instead they make movies and write books trying

to disprove God.

God BLess!

Butting in, but speaking as a person who's been in both worlds, there are pluses and minuses to each.

The biggest difference I noticed, and I can't overemphasize the hugeness of this, is that the entire universe changes when you lose your faith. Imagine living in a universe that was created by a Figure that loves you more than any other entity is capable of loving you. Matter of fact, the very definition of love is this Creator. One of his incarnations is His Son, Jesus, who is with you always- always standing there within reach. Always insuring that whatever happens to you is within your ability to handle (my yoke is light). If you falter, or fall, He will forgive you if you love Him, and put you on the right path. Another incarnation is the Holy Spirit that can illuminate the Word of God and amplify the transcendental wisdom for your human mind to the point that whenever you go to the Word, you will find an answer, which is sometimes "you are wrong", but is never "I don't love you anymore".

Now, imagine a universe that came about my natural means where there is nothing but you, the world, and those few human beings that you might share a connection with. When you are alone, you are alone! There is nothing that insures that justice is done in your life, nor is there any method of knowing truth beyond your own animal ability according to your own perceptions which are limited to the five senses, and your natural intellect. There is no central authority that can intercede in your disagreements and finally say what is right except the law, and the law loves no one and is also limited by the animal mind.

It took me a very long time to get used to the silence of being an atheist.

My Dad, my Big Brother, and my Teacher had all left me. They'd always been there before, every second of my life. I was too old to get used to that immediately and went through some changes.

But now, I can see the benefits of this reality, this universe. I won't go into them here, because I'm not interested in promoting atheism here. I will say that, while I miss that former comfort, I prefer this one at this time. It isn't about what I can now get away with that I couldn't formerly- that's not what it's about. Matter of fact, I don't get to be forgiven so easily anymore, and so must be very careful how I live my life as far as my fellow man is concerned. They're all I've got and I'm certainly not going to hurt them in any way if I can help it.

I hope there is some new perspective in this post for y'all.

k

Nothing new under the sun. It's a perspective that is seriously gone amok.

[Floatingaxe]

I am not condescending in the least...at least in my heart! But I do know the truth about Jesus Christ! Want to know Him? Want to be a King's Kid? Want to live in the favour of God? Want to be salt and light to this dark, sour world? Want abundance? Want healing? Want righteousness? Want truth? Want love?

Come to Christ, the lover of your very soul! Your defender, your rock, your fortress, your joy, your strength, your answer to everything!

Blessings!

[khalou]

Nothing new under the sun. It's a perspective that is seriously gone amok.

Axe, I've nothing against you, but I've noticed that in most of your posts you simply state something as if your beliefs are absolutely true. There's a lot of people, including myself, that take offense to that sort of condescending attitude.

Now have a nice day.

Well, there is one thing that I will reaveal about my new universe that is a definite benefit, and that is a healthy curiosity about things.

k

[Floatingaxe]

Funny, khalou...Christians have a wonderful, healthy curiosity about things too! The difference is, we know who to ask! Someone who will give us an answer--a true one!

[ayin jade]

Khalou, you lack a few facts here. For someone who claims to be educated on the subject of God, you are out of touch on many things.

Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

The purpose of Pauls writings isnt to discuss the life of Christ, but the life of a believer in Christ. What we are supposed to do to follow Him. What we are to believe about the meaning of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul writes about Jesus many times. He discusses His death and resurrection in many passages.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

See, Paul refers to the crucifixion of Jesus here. But Paul wasnt meant to tell the events the way the gospel tells it. Paul's purpose was to teach the new believers what being Christian is about. Living for Him. How to live the life of a believer. Just as important as the gospel accounts of Jesus, we need to understand what it all means. That is the purpose of Paul's writings, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

[ayin jade]

Now, imagine a universe that came about my natural means where there is nothing but you, the world, and those few human beings that you might share a connection with. When you are alone, you are alone! ..............It took me a very long time to get used to the silence of being an atheist.

That is the saddest thing Ive heard in a long time.

[ayin jade]

Well, there is one thing that I will reaveal about my new universe that is a definite benefit, and that is a healthy curiosity about things.

Lol, you dont have to be an atheist to have a healthy curiousity about things. I love learning new things.