Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[TomPJr]

To save me a whole heap of reading, can someone please define the word 'saved' as it is being referred to in this phrase? Not wanting to flog a dead horse but I'm new here and wanted to see if there was agreement on what it means to be saved. Thanks.

Hi, Welcome,

I think that it depends on who you ask.

I presume that most people think it means that you have salvation.

and...many believe that it is when you accept Chist. That is why they say "I was saved in (year)"

I believe, however, that there is a difference.

I don't think that we should presume on our salvation, because we don't know what we are going to do tomorrow.

Salvation comes by grace through faith, if you confess, ask forgiveness, and are willing to repent.

anyone can say "I accept Jesus" or "I got saved", but are they converted? Salvation comes with conversion.

Many will come saying Lord Lord, and he will say I never knew you...(they thought they were saved)

Thanks Tom. May I ask then, what to you is conversion?

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

[Mutzrein]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

[Mutzrein]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

In actuality it is this -

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Cardcaptor - I'm not sure I understand. What are you saying about this scripture?

BTW - any comment about my earlier post to you? I just noticed you hadn't responded.

[TomPJr]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

I think that being born again is the same as being converted...

If you are truly born again in spirit, then your heart is converted. However, we still have our old nature and bad habits that we must overcome lest they un-convert us.

Many people claim to be born again, but they are lying to themselves, or the temptations overtake them an they fall back to their old nature.

I believe that Judas was converted, and born again, but he let his sinful nature overtake him.

If your heart is converted then you are on the road to repentence and making progress along the way. If you are not converted, then there will be no true progress, and just vain attempts to justify your lifestyle.

the truth is that while God is willing for us to be converted unto Godlyness, Satan is trying to convert us to his side. We are what we behold. We become like what we spend time with. That is why it is so important to abstain from immoral conduct, whether it be in person, tv, radio, etc.... If we choose to endulge in immoral activities, we just strengthen the old habbits.

[Mutzrein]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

I think that being born again is the same as being converted...

If you are truly born again in spirit, then your heart is converted. However, we still have our old nature and bad habits that we must overcome lest they un-convert us.

Many people claim to be born again, but they are lying to themselves, or the temptations overtake them an they fall back to their old nature.

I believe that Judas was converted, and born again, but he let his sinful nature overtake him.

If your heart is converted then you are on the road to repentence and making progress along the way. If you are not converted, then there will be no true progress, and just vain attempts to justify your lifestyle.

the truth is that while God is willing for us to be converted unto Godlyness, Satan is trying to convert us to his side. We are what we behold. We become like what we spend time with. That is why it is so important to abstain from immoral conduct, whether it be in person, tv, radio, etc.... If we choose to endulge in immoral activities, we just strengthen the old habbits.

Alright - how do you say then that one is born again.

BTW - I don't agree that Judas was born again.

[Eliyahuw]

I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY?

I was just reading in Hebrews today and was surprised to read something scarey in chapter 6, verse 4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." I am from a Mormon background, but am rediscovering God and so it may not be true, but this does appear to suggest that we can lose our salvation if we do it to ourselves. Does it not?

Shalom!!

First off... praise the L-rd that you came out of Mormonism and found the true G-d!

Secondly, yes, this means exactly what it says...we CAN walk away from our salvation and harden our hearts to reject Jesus and receive eternal damnation.

However, if we keep ourselves close to Jesus, walk in His Spirit and not harden our hearts, we need not fear, He will help us abide in Him and walk out our salvation unto eternal life.

Obviously no this is not the case. IF it is, then it contradicts not only the following verses but a large part of the Gospel. And since the bible is inerrant and in complete agreement, it has to mean something other than you can walk away from your salvation! It can't be both.

ephesians 4:8&9,

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Eliyahuw]

Certainly,

Conversion is the changing of your heart from the old nature to love sin, to the new nature to love and want to obey God.

That doesn't mean that we cannot stumble into sin, but it should not be the norm.

The norm for one who is converted is continual growth and repentence. Lets examine ourselves.

I believe that we must be converted in order to receive salvation and the Kingdom of heaven, just as certain computer files have to be converted in order to be opened by other programs.

Imagine Heaven is the new program... we are corrupt files that will spread a deadly virus unless we are converted into new files without the virus. That is the whole point of us being quaranteened here on this sin deseased earth.

Sin cannot exist in the presence of God, so we must be in a process of sanctification(being made Holy) by getting rid of our sins and developing great love for our Creator. I don't think that we can do this unless our hearts are converted.

does that make sense to you?

I think I understand what you are trying to say. But . . . where do you say 'conversion' fits in with what Jesus said about the one thing that enables a person to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Being born again. You see to me, if one is not born of the Spirit, he/she cannot be 'saved'.

I think that being born again is the same as being converted...

If you are truly born again in spirit, then your heart is converted. However, we still have our old nature and bad habits that we must overcome lest they un-convert us.

Many people claim to be born again, but they are lying to themselves, or the temptations overtake them an they fall back to their old nature.

I believe that Judas was converted, and born again, but he let his sinful nature overtake him.

If your heart is converted then you are on the road to repentence and making progress along the way. If you are not converted, then there will be no true progress, and just vain attempts to justify your lifestyle.

the truth is that while God is willing for us to be converted unto Godlyness, Satan is trying to convert us to his side. We are what we behold. We become like what we spend time with. That is why it is so important to abstain from immoral conduct, whether it be in person, tv, radio, etc.... If we choose to endulge in immoral activities, we just strengthen the old habbits.

You know i see you keep saying that you can lose salvation, or be unconverted. There has been plenty of scripture that says you can't. YOu claim there is scripture that says it can happen, somethings wrong! IF you have scripture that says you can lose salvation going against the very doctrine of Chrsit, then you don't believe the bible is inerrant.

The bible IS however inerrant and agrees completely with itself. So based on that, it would be impossible to lose one salvation based on your verses. Since they do not agree with the verses taht say Salvation is secure then they must mean something else.

Otherwise the bible is entirely false.

[RCruise]

I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY?

this question has been beat more than a dead horse and it always seems to be thrown out there like a challenge rather than some enlightening or revelational help.

Perhaps the more appropriate question would be "Can your name be blotted out of teh Book of Life?" For we DO have direct Answer from Jesus Himself on that one and anyone say8ng "no" would be calling Jesus a liar and no offense or foul toward the person asking or responding.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Can't blot out something that wasn't there to begin with...

[Mutzrein]

You know i see you keep saying that you can lose salvation, or be unconverted. There has been plenty of scripture that says you can't. YOu claim there is scripture that says it can happen, somethings wrong! IF you have scripture that says you can lose salvation going against the very doctrine of Chrsit, then you don't believe the bible is inerrant.

The bible IS however inerrant and agrees completely with itself. So based on that, it would be impossible to lose one salvation based on your verses. Since they do not agree with the verses taht say Salvation is secure then they must mean something else.

Otherwise the bible is entirely false.

Or could it be that the premise upon which the bible is interpreted is false?

[RCruise]

Butero,

Number 5 is almost correct. Or what you failed to add is #6. We enter into the Kingdom by faith. That faith places us In Christ through participation in His Death and Resurrection, baptism. Once we have entered we are saved through that same faith. It is a continuous working out of our salvation. It is being conformed to His Image, working obediently, willfully with Him in this world as co-workers. Because we live in this world with our fallen natures, we are sorely tempted to go astray. We continually put ourselves ahead of Christ. We do not deny ourselves completely all the time. When we do not, we need to confess those shortcomings. There is no default forgiveness, but only forgiveness upon sincere repentance and confession. We sin every day and each day we need to seek renewal and continuance in that journey to recieve the promise of faithfulness.

Christianity is a life to live, not to sit passively by and think that God will do the work for you, work that He created specifically for you to do.

He that loses His life for my sake shall find it. We need to get going to do HIS will. He wills that WE do His Will.

Thaddaeus,

Good Word! But if I can just touch up on something here:

We know by the Scriptures there appears the contradiction on this subject based upon one's interpretating The Great and Wonderful Promises yet, there are warnings to the Believer and acknowledgements that some will Fall away or Depart from The Faith plus Jesus Himself saying to John in Revelation two warnings about "blotting out a name from The Book of Life" which is clear evidence that a name has to be there to be "blotted" out. I struggled with this and prayed over this issue for, as one called to preach, I never wish to present a "falsehood" especially regarding Salvation.

The Lord has led me in a journey of His Word that taking it Whole and Complete, Both His Great Promises and the fact of "Departing or Falling Away (both being the same act)" are True. The key is not in works as James appears to present but, in Active Abiding Faith as you have presented. Yet, there is a lacking of critical information from your post that has come forth out of His Word. "Power to become the sons of God.." (John 1:12)

If we Abide in Him in Faith, not allowing the cares of this life (world) or "thorns" and if we "circumsize our hearts" in His Word (stoney ground) in that Abiding which is all inclusive, The Power to stay and press on is there. But it is wrapped up in the Faith. For we do not see God physically yet, we have excellent testimony of His Mercy and Power to change us continually as we draw close. I believe many miss this and mostly due to "false teachings and doctrines" which draw people to a "false Christ" or wrong expectations in Christ, in God. Most disappointments Christians face today is from "wrong expectations". He desires and Jesus commanded a Unity with Him in more Intimacy of Relationship than we have ever known with family or spouses.

The Key rests solely in that Intimate Relationship and by it comes His Word and Power to sustain and keep us. Many, as Jesus said, seldom find that "strait (meaning not like a 'straight line' but, hedged and precise) gate" which IS Jesus. For all purposes and evidenced in Scripture, even His disciples had to narrow down their expectations and views of Him to enter in. Many left Him when He made it clear that He was not there to be a physical King and Rule over throwing the Roman dominion but, to manifest the Glory of God's Immense Love in Sacrifice for the Real issue; sin and it's dominion in the hearts of men. The "Power to become Sons of God" rests solely in that Relationship for He Promises that those who do so, WILL inherit His Kingdom.

I speak personally as well that since seeing and going this way and not struggling to work as men would work (though I do the Ministry), I have become more dedicated and Loving to His Work and find Power to do so. It used to be an obligation for my calling but now is a loving honor to His Love and Care growing in me. We read these same testimonies especially in Paul's writings and think we understand but, I never really knew even after my ordaining until this Power and Love come by simply doing what Jesus said and that was to draw in close and Abide.

And that is the key to Eternal Security. Jesus said that those who "endure unto the end shall be saved.." It is not an easy task for our flesh and worries and life will interfere. But His yoke and work He calls us to; that diving in and abiding in constant Personal Intimacy, IS lighter than what we put on ourselves or what the world puts on us. I found that the only "discipline" I needed was to discipline my flesh nature (put it to death) that kept me from spending more and more time with Him in His Word, in Prayer, in just talking with Him throughout the day.

In a recent sermon I brought out how His Sacrifice was to "Reconcile us to Him, to God". The term "Reconcile" is most often used in "Marriage" where He in the Old and New Tesaments relates His relationship with Israel and the Church as a Marriage or Betrothed. If we split from our spouses for whatever reasons and then we become "Reconciled" to each other (a husband and wife) it usually is like at the first of the Marriage, like a "honeymoon" and desire to be with each other is kindled and passions to be near one another and not depart ever again from that place of closeness. It is the same in Jesus. God has poured His heart out over the wanton adultery of Israel from His Precious Love, Great Love for her. He would beckon and call out to her and even warn her of her consequences if she so chose to continue to be apart from Him going after others in His place.

He never changes and feels the same for us. If we neglect that union in His Reconciliation, as Paul aptly put it, it is to our own destruction for doing so. Oh, He will beckon, chastize and call out to us to get us back (and I Praise Him that He does for I would not be here today) but, He will never force us to return to Him.

I believe the parable of the 10 virgins shows us much as well. These are not maidens as some believe for there is no gender but "virgin" is used to denote purity. That "purity" only comes from Christ for all have fallen short and we can only be pure having washed our "robes" in His Blood. Five were wise and stored up plenty of Oil while Five did not and did not have enough to light the path in the darkness. So it is with us being made pure in His Blood, we only have The Oil of His Light if we Abide and seek and continue in Him in all ways. Else, we would be like the one man who of the group that were called from all the Highways and Byways to the Wedding Feast, this one man was found not "dressed" in "Wedding Garments" and was cast out for he knew he was bidden yet did nothing to "cleans" or "dress' for this Great Wedding Freast. He was tossed out into the outer darkness.

"Power to become the Sons of God.." We need to seek that continually and Abide in it. Not by Grace alone but, By Grace THROUGH Faith.