mortal or immortal soul ?

[Pilgrim7]

CJ,

This quickening by the Spirit takes place at conversion, only for the saved, not for all. Only those who have been quickened by the Spirit through the 'New Birth' receive eternal life, all others receive eternal death.

As for Daniel 2, contempt does not mean punishment and torture.

If you want the Biblical definition of Eternal fire, look at Jude:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Here we have the Biblical example of 'eternal fire'. So with your definition of eternal fire, Sodom and Gommorah must still be burning. Yet with God's definition, the eternal fire went out after Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed. Yet Sodom and Gommorah are not burning today, so much for 'eternal fire'. The life of the Spirit is the only thing that is eternal. Those who have the Spirit have life eternal. Those who don't have the Spirit, like those in Sodom, die in the lake of fire for they are not fireproof. They receive the wages of sin which are Death in the lake of fire.

Here again, if Jesus suffered the penalty for sin, which He did, according to your theological construct, His Spirit would still have to be burning for you believe the wages of sin is eternal torture of Spirit. Jesus paid the full price for sin, He suffered the agony of body and Spirit, and then He cried, 'It is finnished'. The price was paid.

If the wages of sin was just physical death, then we all pay the wages ourselves for we all die. Thus Jesus died in vain.

Here Luke makes it very clear:

LUKE 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man (2nd coming).

17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (as the flood destroyed the people in the days of Noah, so the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns)

17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Why do we want to make God the 'eternal torturer'. You can't scare people into the kingdom.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Beta]

The early Roman Church made itself out to be the Kgd of God and yes - scared people into joining it with the idea of eternal torment in hell-fire. It was a wonderful incentive to get converts. And sadly people believe this to this day, incredible in view of godly revelation to the contrary. But then it is their belief in the immortal soul (another lie) that causes them to go astray.

from CJ's post I get the impression he considers soul and spirit to be the same, if that is the case I can now understand their confusion.

[Guest Mike_CPKing]

I just joined this forum.

To the OP.

There is biblically speaking no such thing as an immortal soul. This is more of a 'definition' of what 'soul' is in the bible. It is certainly not the immaterial essence of a person.

Here are some key scriptures as a definition to 'soul'

Leviticus 17:11.. The life (soul, Hebrew = 'Nephesh) is in the blood

Deuteronomy 12:23 The life (Nephesh) is in the blood.

So one aspect of soul is the physical life bound up in the body transported by blood.

"Nephesh" or "soul" is the whole physical person, not a part separate for its own sake

Genesis 2:7 ..aGod formed the moulded dust, breathed in the breath of life and man became a living soul (nephesh)

He became a soul, he did not get one!

At death, the soul or life of the person dies:

Numbers 23:10..let my soul (usually translated me, but the Hebrew word "nephesh" is here) die the death of the righteous

Judges 16:30 Let me (nephesh) die with the Philistines.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul (nephesh) that sins will die..

The Hebrews simply did not have a view of personhood that the Greeks had. The neoplatonic view was that people were 'incarnated souls' which clearly is not the biblical line. Rather, we are 'wholistic' beings.

[Beta]

CJ,

Hehe ??? hehe ???

Do you think this is some game we are playing ?

Or a striving for one-upmanship ?

I think we should be very careful what we believe lest we become victims of our own errors.

Thankfully there are others who read scripture correctly.

[Beta]

CJ, to be quite honest I have not again read your posts carefully as I could see your twist to scripture.

You think being condemned to eternal death is escaping judgement ? You get pleasure from eternal torment CJ ?

I am glad you will not be my Judge. Let us just agree to disagree . There will come a time when we will both know the truth.

[Pilgrim7]

Here God makes it quite clear:

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the SOUL that sinneth, it shall die.

18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

[Pilgrim7]

CJ;

Do you actually read through the posts? The only thing eternal about their punishment is the fact that they are dead. Yes the Second Death is eternal. They are dead forever, body and spirit. Yes this is eternal separation from God, this death. I kept this short so you would read it.

No JWs here, just those who read the Scriptures and don't depend on man or churches to spin it for us and tell us what to believe.

Destruction means destroyed. When something is destroyed, it remains destroyed forever. Perish means perish, death means death, absence of spirit and life.

Ps 146:4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Thoughts emanate from the soul.

God bless,

Dennis

[Beta]

CJ, how is it you think we are at Cross-purposees ?

Just where have I said the soul is immortal ? nowhere ! I am still with my original claim that the soul that sins shall die , just as scripture says. And no, I am not a JW. I have no idea what they believe re. mortal / immortal soul.

[Beta]

Hi CJ, I too would like to keep this friendly but to do so we will have to abandon this topic. We just can not agree that is obvious, no matter how many scriptures we quote. You see the human soul as immortal because of God's breath in a person ? Perhaps you see this breath as the eternal spirit from God ? I think here is where we come apart, I do not consider this original breath Gen.2 v 7 to be the eternal soul but simply a means to provide man with temporary life = to make us living souls instead of dead souls, give us the ability to breathe and thus be alive. Scripture says we are a living soul, not an immortal soul.

What breath or movement of air in us does is oxidize the blood and through that we are a living thinking soul with the ability to comprehend and reason. But that ability in itself does not make us immortal. God said to Adam : . . .in the day that you eat of the forbidden tree you shall SURELY die Gen.2 v 17. How could God say that if he had just made Adam immortal in Gen.2 v 7 ? Do you know who told Adam he would NOT die ? Satan the devil,serpent and snake - he said to Eve : you shall NOT surely die Gen.3 v 4, in other words you are immortal.

Now why can people not see from these few scriptures that it is the devil who contradicts what God is saying ?

Many other scriptures tell us there is no conscious life in death because the spirit through which we have comprehension goes back to God at point of death and does not of and by itself make us immortal. That comes later when we have the chance to be born again when God gives us of his own HOLY SPIRIT, given to the obedient and believing only, never to the wicked who are to end up in hell-fire. Not having the Holy Spirit of eternal life they will burn up.

[Pilgrim7]

CJ,

I appreciate your attitude. I am sure you are not trying to impune my state of heart saying that I am not humble. I have also been a member of the ROC and the Baptists and believed as you do for that is what they taught me along with many other unscriptural things. Yet I had to humble myself before God and receive of His Spirit in order to understand and allow Him to interpret His truth to me.

Your dependence upon man to teach you is truly frightening to me. I take you back to the church that God had established, Israel. They too put all their dependence on the teaching of man, so much so that when their own God, the Saviour that they were waiting for, stood right in front of them, they called Him a devil and they crucified Him. So much for the leading of man. Of course we all know that it couldn't happen again, or has it. Remember the words of Jesus:

Here we see that Jesus had many things to tell us:

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now.

Here Jesus tells us who will teach us. I see no mention of denominations or theologians or man.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Here the Holy Spirit warns us of dependence on man:

2pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.

17:6 For he shall be like the heat in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

17:7 Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

I would suggest that you ask the Spirit of truth who is supposed to dwell in you about your dependence to man. It is good to humble oneself, but that does not mean believing everything your told just because they have been annointed of man.

This dependence upon man to teach us about God is the primary reason for the lack of unity, the utter confusion, as men babel on and on about God, when the Spirit is waiting to teach them. The world looks on in derision. They are supposed to hate us because of our unity in the truth we bear and the love we share, not because we appear to them as bereft of reason. You see the real proof of the Laodicean church, is the fact that man has replaced God and His holy Spirit and Jesus is on the outside watching the utter confusion.

I know that you don't agree with me, and I am not going to convince you. No problem. There are many who are waking up and realizing what has happened. They are zealously repenting and receiving of His Spirit. They are led of God and not of man for that is what the Scriptures teach.

PS: Even Adam did not have inhertent immortality, for if he had there would have been no need for the tree of life in the garden. This is why he was banished from the garden so he would not be an immortal sinner.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Your choice, ask man for an interpretation, or ask the Spirit of Truth. Which will you do?

God bless you,

Dennis