mortal or immortal soul ?

[Beta]

OC you are not asking this question with scripture in mind. Just what do you mean by the ' wicked dead ' being burnt in a puff of smoke ? It does not happen like that and you should know this from scripture. 2 Pt.3 v 7 gives some indication and when they have been judged they will meet their fate in the lake of fire.

The wicked dead are the unbelievers who have died without Christ like the righteous dead are the righteous saints the believers who died having recieved Christ as Lord and Saviour. Hence the

wicked dead = unbelievers or sinners

righteous dead= believers or saints

And the question I asked was a direct personal question to you?

Do you believe the wicked dead will be burnt up and be vanquished or annililated forever with no "everlasting" existence in that lake of fire they get thrown into?

I am so unclear what you believe because you will not come out and state your case leaving me in confusion on what your trying to say but not saying at the same time.

So according to 2 Peter 3:7 tell me what you think it means regarding the ungodly? and regarding that perdition of ungodly men what are your thoughts? All of this in light of the question I rephrased for you to answer regarding the wicked dead.

OC

The incorrigible wicked who do not repent, who are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire Rev.20 v 15 which is the second death v 14.

Jesus says . . . fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell Mat.10 v 28.

Mal.4 v 3 further says : you (the righteous) shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this.

I know there are scriptures ref. to eternal hell-fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the beast and false prophet but this in no way says that wicked man will burn eternally - their part in it is to be burnt up by it, resulting in the above mentioned scriptures - ashes and dust as many other already mentioned scripts. verify.

By the way the beast is not a person but our humanly corrupt political systems and likewise the false prophet is our earthly false religious systems. It is those that are eternally kept from rising up again. But the people who subscribe to these systems instead of Gods ways will burn up if they don't repent in time.

Beta

So it is not incorrect at all to say that you do believe that the incorrigible wicked will cease to exist that there "spirits" will not have eternal existence. Then if that be the case then it is not judging you to say that you do believe in the "annilation" of the wicked dead spirits and it is actully "correct" for me to say that as you have so said here in your post about your beliefs.

you say--their part in it is to be burnt up by it resulting in the above mentioned scriptures--ashes and dust.

So in other words in regards to the lake of fire in Revelation 20 those whose names are not found written in the book of life. those that are alive on earth then they will be taken "bodily" and thrown into the lake of fire meaning in "your" view their bodies will just become ashes and dust for us saints to walk on and they will at that time be poof and be no more forever vanished gone no eternal existance or nothing.

The thing with this is in Revelation 20 it says that the sea gave up the dead also those who had already died they don't have a body to be burnt up right cause they are already spirits without a body being already dead. But it says that all of them was thrown into the lake of fire the dead and those who "you say" were alive still with an earthly body whose name was not found.

So if in your thinking some of these people are alive and will be burnt to ashes and dust then it would in your thinking be equally true that you belief is the same things about the spirits of the wicked who already died without Christ. Their is no eternal punishment for their spirits as you think in your views because even spirits will also cease to exist just vanish or be burnt up as well like the body.

So both the bodies and spirits of the wicked in your view will both be burnt up annilated and vanished without a trace forever they just become mere ashes and dust

If this is incorrect about your views please tell me

OC

Oh dear, oh dear, there you go again, introducing YOUR thoughts into what I am saying. You have obviously forgotten how I explained the human spirit in man , how it is NOT ETERNAL. Until we get this sorted out there is no point in debating their ultimate fate, is there ? You are too hasty to jump to conclusions and telling me what I am thinking. Just read what I am saying is all I ask and don't keep adding your own bits. If you don't agree with the scripts I quote please feel free to quote your own without launching into detail of your own understanding.

[Openly Curious]

OC you are not asking this question with scripture in mind. Just what do you mean by the ' wicked dead ' being burnt in a puff of smoke ? It does not happen like that and you should know this from scripture. 2 Pt.3 v 7 gives some indication and when they have been judged they will meet their fate in the lake of fire.

The wicked dead are the unbelievers who have died without Christ like the righteous dead are the righteous saints the believers who died having recieved Christ as Lord and Saviour. Hence the

wicked dead = unbelievers or sinners

righteous dead= believers or saints

And the question I asked was a direct personal question to you?

Do you believe the wicked dead will be burnt up and be vanquished or annililated forever with no "everlasting" existence in that lake of fire they get thrown into?

I am so unclear what you believe because you will not come out and state your case leaving me in confusion on what your trying to say but not saying at the same time.

So according to 2 Peter 3:7 tell me what you think it means regarding the ungodly? and regarding that perdition of ungodly men what are your thoughts? All of this in light of the question I rephrased for you to answer regarding the wicked dead.

OC

The incorrigible wicked who do not repent, who are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire Rev.20 v 15 which is the second death v 14.

Jesus says . . . fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell Mat.10 v 28.

Mal.4 v 3 further says : you (the righteous) shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this.

I know there are scriptures ref. to eternal hell-fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the beast and false prophet but this in no way says that wicked man will burn eternally - their part in it is to be burnt up by it, resulting in the above mentioned scriptures - ashes and dust as many other already mentioned scripts. verify.

By the way the beast is not a person but our humanly corrupt political systems and likewise the false prophet is our earthly false religious systems. It is those that are eternally kept from rising up again. But the people who subscribe to these systems instead of Gods ways will burn up if they don't repent in time.

Beta

So it is not incorrect at all to say that you do believe that the incorrigible wicked will cease to exist that there "spirits" will not have eternal existence. Then if that be the case then it is not judging you to say that you do believe in the "annilation" of the wicked dead spirits and it is actully "correct" for me to say that as you have so said here in your post about your beliefs.

you say--their part in it is to be burnt up by it resulting in the above mentioned scriptures--ashes and dust.

So in other words in regards to the lake of fire in Revelation 20 those whose names are not found written in the book of life. those that are alive on earth then they will be taken "bodily" and thrown into the lake of fire meaning in "your" view their bodies will just become ashes and dust for us saints to walk on and they will at that time be poof and be no more forever vanished gone no eternal existance or nothing.

The thing with this is in Revelation 20 it says that the sea gave up the dead also those who had already died they don't have a body to be burnt up right cause they are already spirits without a body being already dead. But it says that all of them was thrown into the lake of fire the dead and those who "you say" were alive still with an earthly body whose name was not found.

So if in your thinking some of these people are alive and will be burnt to ashes and dust then it would in your thinking be equally true that you belief is the same things about the spirits of the wicked who already died without Christ. Their is no eternal punishment for their spirits as you think in your views because even spirits will also cease to exist just vanish or be burnt up as well like the body.

So both the bodies and spirits of the wicked in your view will both be burnt up annilated and vanished without a trace forever they just become mere ashes and dust

If this is incorrect about your views please tell me

OC

Oh dear, oh dear, there you go again, introducing YOUR thoughts into what I am saying. You have obviously forgotten how I explained the human spirit in man , how it is NOT ETERNAL. Until we get this sorted out there is no point in debating their ultimate fate, is there ? You are too hasty to jump to conclusions and telling me what I am thinking. Just read what I am saying is all I ask and don't keep adding your own bits. If you don't agree with the scripts I quote please feel free to quote your own without launching into detail of your own understanding.

Beta

so set me straight you are not being plain to me what your thoughts are toward the "human spirit"

in general. Take it point by point and straighten me out. I thought you gave your thoughts on it and even told you to correct me in my interpretation of your views was incorrect. And in your reply here you say the human spirit isn't eternal but do not state who you are referring too the saints or unbelievers you did not fill in the blanks. you just avoid things

If I come across as jumping to conclusions like you say it is because you will not fill in the blanks or tell me anything you just say if you don't agree with the scripts I quote please feel free to quote your own without launching into detail of your own understanding. well how is a person to communicate with another if they are not allowed by you to share their understanding in the conversation. Is it all one sided then is what you are telling me here.

Well that sound like you telling me to just accept what you are saying at face value without any questioning or thoughts of my own to interject or ask in this thread.

That sounds like a one sided debate to me. In fact it doesn't seem a debate at all.

And don't you go jumping to conclusions on what I am saying here because it is a response to your reply is all and it will be my thoughts toward what you have said. You could point by point straighten me out.

OC

[darski]

Beta, are you a part of The Way International? (or its next generation)

this is all very familiar heresy you are proclaiming.

[petra99]

What about Lazarus and the rich man?

[Beta]

darski, never heard of the Way International so I can't say if I agree with them or not. As you know there are around 2000 christian denominations and we can't know them all - nor do I want to as it only adds to confusion. I read from the Bible which I consider trustworthy and sufficient for our spiritual growth.

OC, it is not my place to correct or instruct you, all I am doing is telling you how I understand scripture. I find it best to take it in small doses one topic at the time. Long posts keep adding more and more stuff so we end up with too many ingridients we can in the end not truthfully answer to.

I already said in my first and consequent posts what I think the spirit in man is and does. I will now say it again as I grasp it.Scripture says there is a spirit in man and the Almighty gives it understanding. Another script says God formed the spirit in man.From this I gather that this (human) spirit has to do with our consciousness and awareness giving us the ability to think, reason and formulate decisions based on knowledge. It records our Persona as on a spiritual disc / tape and takes it back to God when we die Eccl.12 v 7. It is for God's use to bring a person back to life as themselves in a resurrection to human life. (script says all who are in the grave will hear his voice and will come forth to judgement) This human sp. is not to give us eternal life but only to restore our personality as it was before death. Eternal life only comes through the Holy Spirit of God when we have believed the Gospel, repented and been baptized.Acts 2 v 38-41. Not all people have heard of Jesus Christ or the saving Gospel and God gives them a chance by bringing them back to human life so they can hear it and decide on it. Ez.37. (I can expand some more on this if you wish but do not want to cloud the issue too much at this early stage)

[Beta]

A "wicked accusation" made by Jesus in all four of the Gospels in numerous places.

Hell is real. Jesus spoke of Hell more often than Heaven.

Of course there is a hell, the Bible says so. No one is disputing hell or hell-fire. What is not scriptural is eternal torment since man will not have eternal consciousness when faced with hell-fire. But the wicked will suffer eternal punishment in death , quite different from eternal torment fully conscious. Being dead for ever IS the eternal punishment

And just another script. about the mortal soul Acts 3 v 23, and it shall come to pass that every SOUL which will not HEAR that Prophet (Jesus) shall be destroyed from among the people.

eternal torment is not supported by scripture? what scripture are you reading?

Matthew 18:8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev. 19: 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev. 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,....

...10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Note verse 13, which refers to the dead who are STILL in hell after the thousand years are over. They are then sent to the lake of fire.

Note also verse 10, which says the beast and false prophet are STILL in the lake of fire being tormented A THOUSAND YEARS after they are tossed in there, and also that they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This PROVES that the soul and spirit are not simply destroyed in hell or the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Do i need to keep posting scripture?

Do I need to keep posting scripture to prove otherwise ? I believe I have mentioned enough to prove eternal torment as we understand it will not exist. Btw, the beast and false prophet are HUMANLY DEVISED SYSTEMS that are ANTI-GOD, not individual people suffering eternal punishment. Christ will deal with them at his second coming when the kingdoms of this world (anti-God systems) will be replaced with the Kingdom of God.

I have never argued against hell-fire because the Bible speaks of it but the false premise that the wicked will burn for ever. Man is mortal and therefore can not burn eternally.Mat.10 v 28. Mal.4 v 3

[Beta]

What about Lazarus and the rich man?

Lk.16 v 19, in v 22 we read that the rich man died and was buried. v 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes being in torment . . . People read this as a continuous story or at least assume it is , but it is not wise to do so. Jesus did not say WHEN this rich but wicked man lift up his eyes in hell - nor did script say he had been buried in hell. It is quite obvious that TIME had elapsed between burial and waking up in hell, because script speaks of a resurrection of the unjust Dan.12 v 2, and also Jesus said there is an hour coming for a resurrection to damnation of the evil / wicked Jh.5 v 28 / 29. This resurrection is the last after all other groups have been resurrected and dealt with by God / Christ. This rich and evil man had not been in hell since he was buried, he was simply dead in the grave v 28 until God woke him up to face judgement and the lake of fire.

[Beta]

WSB, YOU may read everlasting fire or punishment as a form of torture but that is not a godly concept. As script says the wicked will have their part in eternal hellfire prepared for the devil and his angels who are spirit and can not burn up - but they being human will burn up. How else could they become ashes under the feet of the saints ?

[WillingToDie]

Btw, the beast and false prophet are HUMANLY DEVISED SYSTEMS that are ANTI-GOD, not individual people suffering eternal punishment.

Prove this from scripture. You can't.

I can, however, show that the beast is a person, as is the false prophet.

Lets re-read one of the scriptures I quoted already.

Revelation 19:20

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Notice: The Beast is a "Him", not an "It". The beast is alive.

Revelation 13:16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

----------------------

Anyway, are you calling Jesus a liar? because he directly stated tht the unrighteous will go into EVERLASTING torment.

Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

WSB, the scriptures you quoted don't necessarily imply an eternal torment.

You seem to think that eternal fire=eternal torment. This is not necessarily so, as many of the scriptures you quote merely say the fire burns eternally, saying nothing about eternal torment, It's entirely possible you're reading something into scripture that isn't there.

The one regarding "everlasting punishment" is, admittedly, not as easy to reconcile. However, if the punishment is destruction, then that punishment would most definitely be eternal. I think this is supported by the next few words: "but the righteous into life eternal". This implies that the wicked do not receive life eternal. If they don't have eternal life, how can they be eternally punished?

Now, I'll admit that, considering I don't know the original Greek, I could be wrong, but looking at the English text, this interpretation seems to make the most sense without taking into the scripture preconceived notions.

[spiritman]

For the Believer: 2Col 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7: For we walk by faith, not by sight:

verse 8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Luke: 23:39-43: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. verse 40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? verse 41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. verse 42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. verse 43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Unsaved people: Luke 16:19- : Jesus said, " There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury. verse 20: at his door lay a diseased beggar name Lazarus. verse 21: As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man's table the dogs would come and lick his open sores. verse 22: Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, verse 23: and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham. verse 24: The rich man shouted, ' Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames'. verse 25: But Abraham said to him, ' Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. verse 26: And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us'.