Science

[Observer of dreams]

I will turn your atheistic beliefs upside down. You do not exist, your user name on this forum was caused by stimuli to your brain that made you want your username for the reasons you think are real. You are a brain in a vat of nutrients. Hooked up to your brain are millions of electrodes that stimulate the nerves of your brain so that your brain believes you are reading this, the electrodes hooked to the optic nerve are telling you what you see. Nothing really exists. Even what you feel is nothing more than a responses caused by these electrodes. You are really in a lab with a mad scientist who is performing experiments on you using these electrodes. I want you to show me it's not true.

You seem to think that as an atheist your beliefs are superior. They are no more than simply beliefs that are different. The above lines are truth. You really are nothing more than a brain in a vat, and since you can't prove your not I will just continue to believe that you are just a brain in a vat, but what do I know? I am just a figment caused by the mad scientist to determine how you will respond to the truth you have just received. Do you think that YOU were in control of reading this? That the desire to get on the internet and come here was your own choice? Well it wasn't, just more stimuli.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Observer of dreams

[Emily~Anne]

I will turn your atheistic beliefs upside down. You do not exist, your user name on this forum was caused by stimuli to your brain that made you want your username for the reasons you think are real. You are a brain in a vat of nutrients. Hooked up to your brain are millions of electrodes that stimulate the nerves of your brain so that your brain believes you are reading this, the electrodes hooked to the optic nerve are telling you what you see. Nothing really exists. Even what you feel is nothing more than a responses caused by these electrodes. You are really in a lab with a mad scientist who is performing experiments on you using these electrodes. I want you to show me it's not true.

You seem to think that as an atheist your beliefs are superior. They are no more than simply beliefs that are different. The above lines are truth. You really are nothing more than a brain in a vat, and since you can't prove your not I will just continue to believe that you are just a brain in a vat, but what do I know? I am just a figment caused by the mad scientist to determine how you will respond to the truth you have just received. Do you think that YOU were in control of reading this? That the desire to get on the internet and come here was your own choice? Well it wasn't, just more stimuli.

WOW! Very well written!

[secondeve]

All the maps I've ever seen from before people realised the Earth was round show a flat, but nonetheless vagely circular, world. A sphere is not the same as a circle, so I wouldn't think that 'circle of the Earth' denotes a sphere; it could just as easily be poetically intended.

Similarly, 'the four corners of the earth' seems a poetic expression; after all, it's still in use as such, so I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally - unless it was worded differently in the original language.

'Pillars of the earth' could just as easily mean foundations, rather than physical pillars - and again, it would be reasonable to interpret this as poetic licence, although it does suggest the idea that the Earth rests on something physically, rather than hanging in empty space.

However:

I can't see a way of getting around the claim that the Earth doesn't move, when we can clearly observe that it does. Neither do I see how you could mean 'all the kingdoms of the earth' any more than literally given the context - after all, it isn't meant casually, as in 'the king sent emissaries to every kingdom on earth,' but rather as a description of God showing a man everything in the world from the top of a mountain - and as has been pointed out, the curve of the Earth makes this a physical impossibility from any height, no matter how great.

[Floatingaxe]

Oh, and it was the church that held the earth was flat. Gallileo, a scientist and secularist, proposed the earth was spherical, for which he was put on house arrest.

Your anti-science attitude is why Christianity has the reputation it does.

Maybe the church did, but not the Bible! It was made up of imperfect and secularly influenced men.

As for reputation, Christianity has the reputation of Christ. He was perfect in every way. You are looking at imperfect people and getting the wrong message.

[undone]

I will turn your atheistic beliefs upside down. You do not exist, your user name on this forum was caused by stimuli to your brain that made you want your username for the reasons you think are real. You are a brain in a vat of nutrients. Hooked up to your brain are millions of electrodes that stimulate the nerves of your brain so that your brain believes you are reading this, the electrodes hooked to the optic nerve are telling you what you see. Nothing really exists. Even what you feel is nothing more than a responses caused by these electrodes. You are really in a lab with a mad scientist who is performing experiments on you using these electrodes. I want you to show me it's not true.

You seem to think that as an atheist your beliefs are superior. They are no more than simply beliefs that are different. The above lines are truth. You really are nothing more than a brain in a vat, and since you can't prove your not I will just continue to believe that you are just a brain in a vat, but what do I know? I am just a figment caused by the mad scientist to determine how you will respond to the truth you have just received. Do you think that YOU were in control of reading this? That the desire to get on the internet and come here was your own choice? Well it wasn't, just more stimuli.

How very Matrix like of you.

[spiritman]

I propose this, I believe that. They are suggestions nothing more. Thank you for your suggestion, but it is not knowledge. The word of God is knowledge. Our father teaches us and we listen. Mother nature teaches us rules and we follow them. Everyone, even those who do not believe in God follow his laws. You cannot escape a creator being such as he is. He is infinite. How do you expect us to show you God when you cannot even veiw your hand in front of your face when the light is cut off?

It was "science" that proposed that the world was round. Before that, Christians were certain it was flat and held up by pillars, the "infallible" bible says so!

No--Scriptures refer to the roundness (spherical) of the earth. It was silly mankind who thought himself rather smart and scientific and pronounced the earth as flat! Totally oblivious to the ancient texts.

Isaiah 11:12

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13

13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19

19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world [The deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world [Again, the deceiving translators should've said "earth", not "world"] is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)"

"for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)"

"Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)"

Nice try though

Ok, well I wanted to do a lengthy reply on this one but I'm having trouble with my mouse pad, I was almost finished when my whole reply was wiped out. So all I want to say was sometimes symbolism is used in the scriptures for example: If I were to say " I'm going to turn you're whole world upside down" There is no way I'm going to turn the entire earth upside down. symbolism. I looked up most of the scriptures that you listed above, in the Hebrew in the Old testament, and the Greek in the new. and most of them are symbolic.

not a literal corrner. and not in the sense of word ends as you are interpeting it. Oh if you look these up please read them in context, and use the right definition for each verse.

you will find you were in error.

Peace

Spiritman

[billie]

I can't see a way of getting around the claim that the Earth doesn't move, when we can clearly observe that it does.

I can help you with this. It moves, yes, but in a fixed orbit. It isn't spinning out of control, hurtling through space.

[Jorge S]

Mapletechie,

If you just stop for a minute and meditate on what you read you may come with surprising answers regarding your own claims. Your failure to understand figurative language makes me wonder why should you entertain understanding more complex issues.

1- The term 'earth' has been used in the Bible to denote ground, soil, land, country and planet, depending on the context.

2- The verses you quoted have not lost any of their intended meaning before and after we learned that the earth is spherical. They mostly reveal God's sovereign, universal and immediate creative, sustaining, prophetic and judgemental power.

3- When attempting to decipher the meaning of those verses you must remember that God always knew what the shape of the earth was because He made it.

4- Even when the direct interpretation of certain verses may require the earth to be 'flat', 'square' and 'founded', you will still have to account for other verses which depict it as a circle (Pro 8:27, Isa 40:22, Job 26:10) or a circuit (Job 22:14) hanging on nothing (Job 26:7).

5- The Bible is not explicit about Astronomy. Certain worldviews held in the past do not derive from the Bible but from cosmogonies created by men, specifically Greek Philosophers, which were dominant during the early stages of Christianity. Aristotle, in particular, was very influential.

6- Galileo did not rebel against the Bible or Christian faith; he opposed a megalomaniac church that suffocated free thinking and science. His fight was against clericalism and he defended not only freedom of inquiry but also that the results of those inquiries in the natural were not to be taken as articles of faith. Ironically, it was a fellow professor the one who betrayed him because of his dislike of Galileo's anti-Aristotelian views. By the way, the Catholic Church apologised under John Pope II for the Galileo trial.

7- The artificial debate faith vs science (or viceversa!) had at its roots not the Bible but church positions and interpretations. The natural world was considered inferior and of no use exploring as compared to the spiritual world, therefore there was no interest in naturalism for centuries.

This wonderful universe testifies of God's Majesty and Awesome Power. Every scientific discovery that unveils the workings of nature are a tribute to Him Who made all things visible and invisible. Science and God are only separated in the minds of the arrogantly ungrateful.

[Observer of dreams]

My question is not answered yet, it somehow degenerated into nonsense about Earth. I'll ask again. How do you, atheists, expect us to show you God when you cannot even see your own hand in front of your face when the light is suddenly cut off?

Well if you think about it. If Einstein were correct on his theory of relativity Than all speed would be relative to another speed. If the big bang were also true, as well as newtons laws. Than everything in the universe is moving at a ridiculously high speed since it is suggested that the universe was created within a trillionth of a second. If there are galaxies that we cannot see because the light hasn't reached us, and we assume that the above theories are correct, than the big bang happened faster than the speed of light. I'll just stop there

Edited November 4, 2006 by Observer of dreams

[billie]

Observer, you have my head spinning!