Remember the Sabbath

[nanasimmons]

Romans 7:1-7 You cannot be married to the First law/old covenant/husband and to the second new covenant/Christ/husband at the same time or you are committing spirital adultry. But if the first husband is dead/dies then you are free to marry another.

You never replied to this post..I wanted to hear your twist on these scriptures...

Twist? C'mon...would you please act like an adult? If I have twisted anything you should be able to show it without being ugly.

Though it is probably a mistake, I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are sincere in wanting to know how I read that...so again, let's look at the context of the entire passage.

6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Not sure how many times I can repeat this without you hearing it; but here it goes again.....please listen well.

Yeshua made it clear that the SPIRIT of the law is the ultimate purpose of it....yet the spirit of the law is based on what the letter of the law says!

The Apostles (including Paul) understood that the Torah could not be realistically enforced on a gentile who lives outside of Israel and that the spirit of the law was all that really mattered anyway.

None of that makes the law void.

Let's read what Pauls says in the very next sentences of the passage you quoted

Remember: Context, context, context.....

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God

[sheya joie]

Hermeneutics"

from the greek hermeneuo "to interpret or translate (from the messenger of the gods,Hermes), is the theory and practice of interpretation, originally the interpretation of texts,especially religious texts...???????

No,thank you,none of that for me, thanks anyways!!

I will take my usual dose of Holy Spirit interpretations over "Hermes" any and every day..

Hermeneutics is pagan???

[Guest yod]

You and Shiloh can keep this thread, according to both of you..no one else is qualified to interpret the scriptures for themselves, and as implied by both of you, the Holy Spirit has no bussiness teaching us,when you guys are far more intelligent than He...

Chalk it up as a win or a comp out on my part, what ever feeds your egos best...

wow...talking about ego and arrogance? All I have asked for is honest study of the Word of God.

I spent at least an hour crafting a response to your (obviously) insincere question. You could take a few minutes to explain why you have any problems with it, but no, instead all you do is throw a few more insults around.

Are you really that intellectually empty? Are insults and guile all you can offer this thread? Are you so spiritually immature that you can't discuss the Bible using the bible?

Then please....do stay away.

I'd like a conversation with someone who thinks instead of spews...

[Guest yod]

Galatians 2:11-18 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Under the Jewish law they were to separate themselves from the Gentiles. The "Works of the law" spoken hear are the works of the Old Law.

As was said before. There is no law against keeping of the Sabbath if you want to, but there is also no law telling us we have to. If we think we have to keep the Sabbath Day then it needs to be kept like the Old Testement commands or we become a transgressor of that law. Also, if I try to keep any of the Old Law I am bound to keep ALL of it. That would take in everything listed in Exodus-Deut.

Also, even though we have been saved from the the wrath to come by being "Born Again", we are still commanded to obey the Law or our salvation is void.

We become Christians by being "Born Again".

Thanks for your thoughful and intelligent response.

I'm pretty much in agreement to all of that....

[Guest shiloh357]

You and Shiloh can keep this thread, according to both of you..no one else is qualified to interpret the scriptures for themselves, and as implied by both of you, the Holy Spirit has no bussiness teaching us,when you guys are far more intelligent than He...

No that was never said nor implied. That is just an emotional baseless charge that you make in the face of not actually being able to refute the material presented.

The problem is that you are autommatically working from the assumption that YOUR views are pure, and from the Holy Spirit, thus if I don't agree with your conclusions, my views are somehow characterized as being antagonistic to the Holy Spirit. You are poisoning the well, by automatically discounting any view that would be at variance with yours. It is just dirty debate tactic. You, like Logos refuse to actually ask questions in an honest manner. Any questions you do ask are laced with barbs and snide underhanded digs. Any disagreement with you is characterized as pagan, or unspiritual, or twisting the Bible. Not because you can prove it, but because you don't have anything of substance to offer. All you can do is make ugly retorts, and if you get called on those retorts, you whine about being demonized.

Are you really that intellectually empty? Are insults and guile all you can offer this thread? Are you so spiritually immature that you can't discuss the Bible using the bible?

Then please....do stay away.

I'd like a conversation with someone who thinks instead of spews...

I would have to agree.

[Yahsway]

Mankind was never "required" to become a Jew for Salvation. not in the OT or NT. God "saved" the mixed-multitude" that left from Egypt as well. This was before God gave them His laws.

Yeshua himself said "And OTHER sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be ONE flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

As for the Sabbath Acts 15:20-

but we (Jerusalem council) write to them (The Gentiles) to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had thru out many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the Synagogues every Shabbat.

Are these 4 requirements a blanket exemption from the rest of the Torah? Are these the only 4 prohibitions that apply to Gentiles?

Not so! For absent are the commandments such as one honoring ones parents, and the prohibition against murder ect..

The 4 requirments given to the Gentiles by the Jerusalem council are not presented as if they are a Replacement for the commandments of the Torah. They are simply 4 basic requirements set forth by the Jerusalem Council to make sure that the Gentile believers were not participating in the idolatry of their local temples.

As for the rest of the Torah laws, James neither binds their observence upon the Gentiles, nor does he exempt them from them. Instead he says that "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

The Torah was read in the synagouge every week. At the time of the Jerusalem council, Jewish and Gentile believers were still assembling in the local synagouges every Sabbath. And in those synagouges the Torah was read every week.

So as to Gentiles and the written Torah, James says that the Gentile believers WILL HEAR the Torah. They will read it aloud every week. They wil HEAR it preached every week.

The most obvious expectation is that by Hearing it read and hearing it preached will lead to doing it.

So James simply says (in my paraphrase) Lets not make things difficult for these Gentiles coming to the faith. Lets have them do a some basic things so they don't get tossed aout from fellowship, and as for the rest of the Torah (instructions) they will be HEARING it every week.

Acts 20 7-

Speaks of Paul and the disciples being together to "break bread" (this was not communion) this was an actual supper. Breaking bread in Hebrew thought is to have a meal together, which they did just after the Sabbath, when the sun goes down on Saturday and the evening starts the next day or the 1st day of the week, Sunday. This is still done today by the Hebrews.

Notice verse 8 says There were many LAMPS in the upper room where they gathered together. This was the evening after Sabbath which in the Hebrew calander days is the 1st day of the week. Shabbat is over, the sun has gone down, the 1st day of the week has started, it is dark from the sun going down. You would know this in western thought as Saturday night.

If you look in this same chapter in verse 6, you will also discover that Paul still kept the Feasts of the Lord for he did not sail away on his journey until AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread.

1 corinth. 16:2

Paul wants the believers to lay aside something on the 1st day of the week for a collection for the saints in Jerusalem. Why lay it aside on the first day of the week? Remember the money changers in the synagogue? Remember Yeshua said that the Lords house is a house of prayer? Business matters should be done on the first day of the week. The Sabbath is a day of rest and reflection. No where in this chapter and verse does it say that Sunday was to be a day of gathering together to worship (although everyday is fine) and nowhere does it insinuate that the Sabbath has been done away with for the Sabbath day was not a day for business practices and Paul understood that. Thats why he tells them to store it up on the 1st day of the week.

Remember Acts 21:24

...and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you (Paul) are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

There is nothing said about "circumcision" in the flesh in the 10 commandments. God has always wanted a circumcised Heart according to Duet. 30:6

You are right in that the ordinances (the penalty) has been nailed to the cross for Jesus paid our penalty. But the 10 commandments-ALL of them are still in effect today.

[nanasimmons]

Mankind was never "required" to become a Jew for Salvation. not in the OT or NT. God "saved" the mixed-multitude" that left from Egypt as well. This was before God gave them His laws.

There were non-jewish people in both OT and NT that became Jews,which required them to become circumcised.(Esther 8:17)

Jesus said in John 4:22 "for salvation is of the Jews".

As for the Sabbath Acts 15:20-

but we (Jerusalem council) write to them (The Gentiles) to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had thru out many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the Synagogues every Shabbat.

Are these 4 requirements a blanket exemption from the rest of the Torah? Are these the only 4 prohibitions that apply to Gentiles?

Not so! For absent are the commandments such as one honoring ones parents, and the prohibition against murder ect..

The 4 requirments given to the Gentiles by the Jerusalem council are not presented as if they are a Replacement for the commandments of the Torah. They are simply 4 basic requirements set forth by the Jerusalem Council to make sure that the Gentile believers were not participating in the idolatry of their local temples.

As for the rest of the Torah laws, James neither binds their observence upon the Gentiles, nor does he exempt them from them. Instead he says that "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

The Torah was read in the synagouge every week. At the time of the Jerusalem council, Jewish and Gentile believers were still assembling in the local synagouges every Sabbath. And in those synagouges the Torah was read every week.

So as to Gentiles and the written Torah, James says that the Gentile believers WILL HEAR the Torah. They will read it aloud every week. They wil HEAR it preached every week.

The most obvious expectation is that by Hearing it read and hearing it preached will lead to doing it.

So James simply says (in my paraphrase) Lets not make things difficult for these Gentiles coming to the faith. Lets have them do a some basic things so they don't get tossed aout from fellowship, and as for the rest of the Torah (instructions) they will be HEARING it every week.

Acts is a book of history written between 61-63 A.D. and the time span is, of about 29 years,from Christ's accension(about 33 A.D.) through the imprisionment of Paul in Rome,(about 62 A.D.)

In Acts 15(about 22,23 years after pentecost), this meeting that takes place is about thirteen years after Peter's vision,and after the gentiles were first baptized by the Holy Spirit(not even with water yet), which back in Acts ch.10;11:1-18 they had all agreed that God excepted the uncircumcised/gentiles as they were(what God has cleansed,you must not call common)Acts 10:15 the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles while uncircumcised(and without water baptism), JUST as He had fallen on them at the beginning.

The jewish BELIEVERS were still having trouble excepting uncircumcised gentiles, even all these years later.

Paul,who had been preaching amoung the gentiles for about 12 years,and Barnabas,(Titus was with them),were not buying into circumcision and keeping the Law for their gentile converts..

Finally, after much dispute,(Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:5), Peter rises up recounts what happened 13 years earlier,pointing out that God made no distinction between themselves/circumcised Jews and the uncircumcised gentile believers,purifying their hearts by FAITH.V.10 " Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yolk/bondage on the neck of the disciples,which neither our fathers nor we are able to bear?"V.11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."(by faith)

Acts 15 and Galatians 2:1-10 are the same account, Titus,(already a disciple),went with Paul v.3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised.v.4 FALSE BRETHREN spied out thier LIBERITY,which we have in Christ,that they might bring them into BONDAGE. v.5 to whom they did NOT yeild submission to,not even for one hour, that the TRUTH of the gospel may continue....

Now, as for what Acts 15:21 was in TRUTH saying, James was saying, Acts 15:14-18"Simon(Peter) has declared how God at the first (13 years earlier) visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His Name.v.15 "and with this the words of the prophets agree,Just As It Is Written:V.16 "After This,( After what? Romans 11:25-27, the fulness of the gentiles come in,the whole Body of believers/Church.) After this, Amos 9:11-15 (the restoration of Israel)....

V.20 abstain from;

1. pollutions of idols Gen. 35:2(as God first called Abram out from his country,kindred and father's house Gen.12:1, They were pagans, and served other gods Josh. 24:2),and they were leaving their pagan gods, and turning to the true God.

2.sexual immorality (1 Cor.6:13-20 would you join Christ to a harlot? It is a sin against your own body)

3,4. things strangled and from blood (Gen. 9:3-6 the life is in the blood).

based on this one scripture v.21, it is contray to believe after the big dispute over Paul's gospel of faith alone, given by Christ Himself, to Paul, that the gentiles would be going to the synagogues every sabbath,just so they might be brought into bondage....

Acts 20 7-

Speaks of Paul and the disciples being together to "break bread" (this was not communion) this was an actual supper. Breaking bread in Hebrew thought is to have a meal together, which they did just after the Sabbath, when the sun goes down on Saturday and the evening starts the next day or the 1st day of the week, Sunday. This is still done today by the Hebrews.

Notice verse 8 says There were many LAMPS in the upper room where they gathered together. This was the evening after Sabbath which in the Hebrew calander days is the 1st day of the week. Shabbat is over, the sun has gone down, the 1st day of the week has started, it is dark from the sun going down. You would know this in western thought as Saturday night.

If you look in this same chapter in verse 6, you will also discover that Paul still kept the Feasts of the Lord for he did not sail away on his journey until AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread.

I don't know what would be contriversial about communion being celebrated any or every day that the believers meet together.

1 Cor.11:23-34 Explains what the Lord told Paul, in turn paul delivered it to believers as concerning The Lord's Supper and there is no mention of any certain day,Sabbath or otherwise. So,acts 20:7 or 11 are not relevent.

1 corinth. 16:2

Paul wants the believers to lay aside something on the 1st day of the week for a collection for the saints in Jerusalem. Why lay it aside on the first day of the week? Remember the money changers in the synagogue? Remember Yeshua said that the Lords house is a house of prayer? Business matters should be done on the first day of the week. The Sabbath is a day of rest and reflection. No where in this chapter and verse does it say that Sunday was to be a day of gathering together to worship (although everyday is fine) and nowhere does it insinuate that the Sabbath has been done away with for the Sabbath day was not a day for business practices and Paul understood that. Thats why he tells them to store it up on the 1st day of the week.

We are the Temple where God now lives,He no longer lives in man made temples..So,I don't know if it really makes any difference what day they collected the money, the important thing was that they gave, to help the poor.The fact that Paul gave instructions to collect on the first day of the week, should not be offensive or frowned upon for any reason,from any one, especially if any day is fine to worship God.

There is nothing said about "circumcision" in the flesh in the 10 commandments. God has always wanted a circumcised Heart according to Duet. 30:6

You are right in that the ordinances (the penalty) has been nailed to the cross for Jesus paid our penalty. But the 10 commandments-ALL of them are still in effect today.

In The New Covenant ,We have the Spirit of Truth living in us.

Jesus said that went He went to the Father, He would send the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost," And He shall teach you all things." You must be born of the Spirit...

But even the people of OT, the Israelites asked Moses to hear from God for them because they did not want to hear for themselves, then they cried for a king like other nations,stoned God's messengers/prophets, over and over God tells His people "if you wil hear and obey my voice" In Acts 7:51 Steven points out the Holy Spirit is always being resisted.

Don't listen man made rules/commandments on how to interpret the scriptures for you, as some do..These rules/philosophies come long after (generations) the scriptures were written.

Edited November 29, 2006 by nanasimmons

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(Yahsway @ Nov 28 2006, 01:58 PM)

Mankind was never "required" to become a Jew for Salvation. not in the OT or NT. God "saved" the mixed-multitude" that left from Egypt as well. This was before God gave them His laws.

There were non-jewish people in both OT and NT that became Jews,which required them to become circumcised.(Esther 8:17)

Jesus said in John 4:22 "for salvation is of the Jews".

That does not address the issue Yahsway brought up. In Esther it was a voluntary act. They willingly submitted to becoming Jews, and thus willingly underwent circumcision. No place in the Bible are Gentiles ever commanded to become Jews. Jews and Gentiles together were rescued at the red sea, both were fed manna, both were saved by the blood of the Passover lamb. The Gentiles that were among the Israelites in the Exodus did not have to be circumcised to be saved by the blood.

Now, as for what Acts 15:21 was in TRUTH saying, James was saying, Acts 15:14-18"Simon(Peter) has declared how God at the first (13 years earlier) visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His Name.v.15 "and with this the words of the prophets agree,Just As It Is Written:V.16 "After This,( After what? Romans 11:25-27, the fulness of the gentiles come in,the whole Body of believers/Church.) After this, Amos 9:11-15 (the restoration of Israel)....

V.20 abstain from;

1. pollutions of idols Gen. 35:2(as God first called Abram out from his country,kindred and father's house Gen.12:1, They were pagans, and served other gods Josh. 24:2),and they were leaving their pagan gods, and turning to the true God.

2.sexual immorality (1 Cor.6:13-20 would you join Christ to a harlot? It is a sin against your own body)

3,4. things strangled and from blood (Gen. 9:3-6 the life is in the blood).

These four requirements are the absolute bare necessities required for table fellowship with a Torah observant Jew, which shows how the disciples (and the Holy Spirit) felt about the Torah. James being led by the Holy Spirit gave these four requirements as the starting point. His logic was that the Gentiles who believed were in the Synagogues every Sabbath, and would learn the rest, and thus there was no reason to bring the full weight of of the Torah and Jewish law to bear upon them.

Notice the 3rd and 4th requirement that James cited, though. They were to abstain from eating blood and any strangled animal. This speaks to a very important issue in Jewish life. It is called "Kashrut" which is the body of rules involving how an animal is prepared for consumption. In Jewish law, an animal is not to be bludgeoned to death, strangled, suffocated or any method of death that involves stopping the heart before the animal can be bled completely. In the practice of Kashrut, an animal is prepared by having its jugular pricked. Instead of suffering, the animal simply falls asleep as the blood is drained. It is the most humane, and compassionate way to kill the animal, and it insures that as much of the blood is drained as possible before the animal is butchered, and the remaining blood is removed.

This is a practice that was done even in the 1st century. It is interesting that James would make such a requirement. Think about it. If you were a Gentile believer in that day, and you heard this letter read, and you took the four requirements seriously, then you would look to buy meat that came from an animal that had not been strangled and which had the blood removed from it. The only place you could go to be guaranteed that your meat met the Apostle's demand, was to a Jewish butcher, and Jewish butchers don't offer pork. So, you would end up eating only meat that could be found at a Jewish butcher shop which would cause you to follow, as a Gentile the dietary laws in Leviticus 11 and Deut. 14 by default.

based on this one scripture v.21, it is contray to believe after the big dispute over Paul's gospel of faith alone, given by Christ Himself, to Paul, that the gentiles would be going to the synagogues every sabbath,just so they might be brought into bondage....

Actually, James motivation for giving these requirements was the very fact that the Gentile believers were going to the Synagogue and heard Moses taught every Sabbath. His logic is that they will learn as they continue to grow. Part of the problem is that you see the Torah as bondage, which the Bible does not support. The Bible has a lot to say about the Torah, but the Bible NEVER calls the Torah bondage. Torah = bondage is a false, unbiblical teaching, bordering on heresy, really.

QUOTE

Acts 20 7-

Speaks of Paul and the disciples being together to "break bread" (this was not communion) this was an actual supper. Breaking bread in Hebrew thought is to have a meal together, which they did just after the Sabbath, when the sun goes down on Saturday and the evening starts the next day or the 1st day of the week, Sunday. This is still done today by the Hebrews.

Notice verse 8 says There were many LAMPS in the upper room where they gathered together. This was the evening after Sabbath which in the Hebrew calander days is the 1st day of the week. Shabbat is over, the sun has gone down, the 1st day of the week has started, it is dark from the sun going down. You would know this in western thought as Saturday night.

If you look in this same chapter in verse 6, you will also discover that Paul still kept the Feasts of the Lord for he did not sail away on his journey until AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread.

I don't know what would be contriversial about communion being celebrated any or every day that the believers meet together.

1 Cor.11:23-34 Explains what the Lord told Paul, in turn paul delivered it to believers as concerning The Lord's Supper and there is no mention of any certain day,Sabbath or otherwise. So,acts 20:7 or 11 are not relevent.

What Yahsway is pointing out is that Paul is preaching on what would in calendar be Saturday night, and in Jewish culture is called "Havdalah." The ancient Israelis and even in modern Israel, operate from a lunar calendar. Paul was not preaching at 11:00 am on Sunday morning. He is preaching at the end of the Sabbath going into the first day of the week. It demonstrates that Paul still lived a very Torah-positive life.

We are the Temple where God now lives,He no longer lives in man made temples..So,I don't know if it really makes any difference what day they collected the money, the important thing was that they gave, to help the poor.The fact that Paul gave instructions to collect on the first day of the week, should not be offensive or frowned upon for any reason,from any one, especially if any day is fine to worship God.

That argument cuts both ways. If it is any day is fine, then you should have no problem with anyone meeting on the Sabbath, and you should not accuse them of having a different gospel or of being in bondage to the law. If a person observes the Sabbath from friday night to saturday night, it should not be a point of contention with you if we are truly free in Christ.

Funny how everyone is "free" until they do something Jewish.

In The New Covenant ,We have the Spirit of Truth living in us.

Jesus said that went He went to the Father, He would send the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost," And He shall teach you all things." You must be born of the Spirit...

But even the people of OT, the Israelites asked Moses to hear from God for them because they did not want to hear for themselves, then they cried for a king like other nations,stoned God's messengers/prophets, over and over God tells His people "if you wil hear and obey my voice" In Acts 7:51 Steven points out the Holy Spirit is always being resisted.

Don't listen man made rules/commandments on how to interpret the scriptures for you, as some do..These rules/philosophies come long after (generations) the scriptures were written.

God also created your brain, and He expects you to use it. It is very problematic when people try to pit intelligence against the Holy Spirit. God gave human teachers to the Body of Christ. No one, gets all of their learning from the Holy Spirit without any human instrumentation whatsoever. No one here is that pure. Everyone's belief system is the product of the spiritual environs they live in. Their pastors, sunday school teachers, the books they have read, the tapes they listen to, the websites they visit, all contribute to how people understand the Bible. Your pastor uses hermeneutics, and in fact, so do you. You have a method of interpretation, everyone does. It can be seen everywhere. You don't read Shakespeare the same way you read cookbook. That is because you recognize the difference in literary types. In the same way, you don't treat a parable like a prophecy, or a psalm like a proverb. Whether you like it or not, hermeneutics are a part of your life.

Your rant against hermeneutics is just a means of demonizing what you disagree with. If anyone uses their brain, then they are painted as not listening to the Holy Spirit, yet it is the Holy Spirit who gives men the tools to study and test the Scripture. It is because God gave us the Bible in recognizable literary forms like poetry, prose, parables, the fact that He did not circumvent figures of speech, but left us a book that we can read, analyze, test and question shows us that God is able to impact man in both his heart and mind. It shows that God can offer answers that are both spiritually and intellectually satisfying.

[Smalcald]

I took a quick read of this thread this is probably been covered but I think the thread premise is wrong.

The gentile Christians has never changed the Sabbath, we don't observe the Sabbath and this is a choice that has been made. I think we need to be honest about that fact, Sunday is not the Sabbath and going to Church on Sunday is not observing Sabbath in anyway that would be recognized by Jews or by Jesus for that matter.

So the choice was to worship on the first day of the week to celebrate the resurrection, the choice was not to change the Sabbath; the decision or choice was to not observe a Sabbath day or any Sabbath days.

I think this is linked to Paul's statements in scripture that we don't need to observe New Moons and Sabbaths.

I don't know how I feel about if frankly, but the Sabbath has never been changed. I don't observe a Sabbath on Sunday and neither do most Christians. Going to church and possibly thinking about God in a more intense way on Sunday is NOT observing Sabbath. I drive, I conduct commerce and sometimes I work on Sunday along with going to church for worship so even if Sunday was the Sabbath, I don't observe it as Sabbath and neither do most Christians. So the issue regardless of the day, is to observe or not to observe a Sabbath day. For a variety of reasons most Christians and Christian groups have decided to not observe a Sabbath.

[Yahsway]

Smalcald, thanks for that. I agree with what you say. Here are a few quotes from just a few of our "Church Fathers" that also agree.

Methodist John Wesley- "But, the Moral Law contained in the 10 commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he (Christ) did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken.... Every part of this Law must remain in force upon ALL mankind, and in ALL ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangable relation to each other."

Dewight L. Moody-

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This 4th commandment begins with the word 'remember', showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the Law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can man claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other 9 are still binding?"

Presbyterian T. C. Blake wrote-

"The Sabbath is a part of the Decalogue-The Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution. Until, therfore, it can be shown that the whole moral Law has been repealed, the Sabbath WILL stand...The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath."

Anglican/Episcopal Bishop Seymour wrote

"We have made the change from the 7th day to the 1st day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the Authority of the One Holy Catholic Church."

Disciples of Christ-Alexander Campbell wrote-

"The 1st day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the 1st day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any imitation of such a change."

Ausburg Confession of Faith written by Melanchthon and approved by Martin Luther wrote-

"They (Roman Catholic) refer to the Sabbath Day, as having been CHANGED into the Lords Day. contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the Power of the Church, since it has Dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!"