The morality of torture

[Leonard]

PIT is generally a one shot deal. If the guy doesn't talk, future torture will be of no avail. In any event, it is not nearly effective as some of our drugs. The old fashioned sodium pentathol, or scopalamine are NOTHING compared to the truth syrums we've got now.

Real torture is only used because the torturer enjoys it.............

[Guest man]

Aren't we supposed to have the attitude of "I want to do as Jesus would have done"?

Do you think Christ would post link upon link upon link of things that you know will rustle the feathers of some of the people on this board?

Do you think Christ would bring contention amongst His brother's and sister's just for the sake of a good argument?

Do you think Christ would have anything to do with most of what you posted on these boards?

You lay traps and snares and stumbling blocks and when someone trips, you're right there to point a finger.

Very little of what you put on these boards can be considered from God. You like to stir the pot, get things riled up and then you sit back and no doubt have a chuckle or two.

I said this before and I'll say it again....if you spent half as much time nosing through the bible as you do nosing through the internet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Some of you people are incredible!

Question: Do you feel that torture of any kind has any moral value at all?

Answer: Well they do it to us!

Brilliant way not to answer the question. You seem to be so steeped in hatred and a desire for revenge on the "enemy" that you will "justify" or simply deny any question of torture of the "enemy".

The entire point was that "an allegation of torture of somebody (whether or not they are guilty of something is largely irrelevant) has been made, so let's discuss it". But no, you want to absolutely ignore the question and just bring up how horrible "the enemy" has been to westerners or other Christians.

Aren't we supposed to have the attitude of "I want to do as Jesus would have done"? So read Hypathia's post: How did Jesus torture, no he was tortured himself!

The problem is that we already know your position, so your motives posting what you did is suspect. I have lost count of how many people post something "just for disucssion" when in a few pages their true agenda comes out.

The problem is that you assume your position is the moral position to take. You are against ANY form of torture for ANY reason, and we understand that.

The problem is that you start off with your mind made up, and then question the moral fortitude of someone who sees it differently.

Torture for torture's sake IS immoral, and I don't think anyone here would advocate inflicting pain on anyone needlessly.

I guess the problem is that these types of morall issues are aimed at Christians particularly Western (U.S.) Christians, and it is perceived as nothing but a back door approach to condemn the war in Iraq. It just doesn't appear that pure discussion is what you are really after.

Some of us are of the opinion that perhaps you should approach the insurgents (terrorists) in Iraq and preach to them first. They torture people as an act of aggression. They use torture for propaganda points. They use torture as pre-cursor to exectution. Perhaps when you have vistited your moral perfection on them, you might have something to say to us on the issue. You cannot compare their tactics to the US' tactics. There is simply no similarity whatsoever.

[Guest LadyC]

buck, i'm against the use of torture.... but what YOU define as torture and what i define it as (which is how it is defined by the geneva convention standards) are very different things.

just as you find our morality suspect because we don't define torture the same way that you do (dare i ask if you think sleep deprivation is torture?), i find almost every thread you start to be suspect. you post like crazy with the intention of stirring up a hornet's nest rather than posting threads that edify the board or glorify the Lord. so please stop making moral judgements on the rest of us.... the one leg you have to stand on is weak in the knee.

[Leonard]

buck, i'm against the use of torture.... but what YOU define as torture and what i define it as (which is how it is defined by the geneva convention standards) are very different things.

just as you find our morality suspect because we don't define torture the same way that you do (dare i ask if you think sleep deprivation is torture?), i find almost every thread you start to be suspect. you post like crazy with the intention of stirring up a hornet's nest rather than posting threads that edify the board or glorify the Lord. so please stop making moral judgements on the rest of us.... the one leg you have to stand on is weak in the knee.

RIGHT ON, LADYC!

[buckthesystem]

Aren't we supposed to have the attitude of "I want to do as Jesus would have done"?

Do you think Christ would post link upon link upon link of things that you know will rustle the feathers of some of the people on this board?

Do you think Christ would bring contention amongst His brother's and sister's just for the sake of a good argument?

Do you think Christ would have anything to do with most of what you posted on these boards?

You lay traps and snares and stumbling blocks and when someone trips, you're right there to point a finger.

Very little of what you put on these boards can be considered from God. You like to stir the pot, get things riled up and then you sit back and no doubt have a chuckle or two.

I said this before and I'll say it again....if you spent half as much time nosing through the bible as you do nosing through the internet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Man, you're fast becoming the "master of personal attack". Don't you think you should address the issue - not "scream at" the person raising it?

Go on, try it! Read my words and consider what was obviously said, don't "read your own meaning into them" and assign a strange motive to me for my saying them.

[buckthesystem]

buck, i'm against the use of torture.... but what YOU define as torture and what i define it as (which is how it is defined by the geneva convention standards) are very different things.

just as you find our morality suspect because we don't define torture the same way that you do (dare i ask if you think sleep deprivation is torture?), i find almost every thread you start to be suspect. you post like crazy with the intention of stirring up a hornet's nest rather than posting threads that edify the board or glorify the Lord. so please stop making moral judgements on the rest of us.... the one leg you have to stand on is weak in the knee.

LadyC, you obviously believe that torture is a good thing. Maybe you're a "frustrated FBI agent" or something. Maybe you enjoyed pretending to pull the wings off insects, as a child, and justified it by telling yourself "it can't really be defined as torture because I only scared them, I didn't actually permanently maim them, they were just uncomfortable for a while".

One thing though: How did you get out of my original post that I was "making moral judgements on the rest of you"? I must remind you also that those who advocate torture are very much in the minority on these boards.

Also if you don't like what I say, please don't deal with it by personally attacking me.

[Openly Curious]

buckthesystem,

you would let others just come in our nation and kill our own people and say well so what let's just keep the peace and go on. Well it don't work that way for the word says there is a time to love a a time to be born a time to die time to hate a time to kill a time of peace a time to be quiet and a time to speak and a time of war.

Wish there was an easier way than the "horrors" of war that mankind can settle their differences but their hasn't been since the beginning of time and will not be till the end of this world as we know it to be.

I watched a volunteer man on tv demonstrate the water boarding approach and I have never seen or heard of in the history of my entire life a more "moral" form of gaining information. It was over within a few minutes and the man was not harmed physically or mentally afterwards at all.

No heads cut off no blood spilled no limbs cut off no thumbs or toes cut off none of that at all. In a time of war a few minutes to spare the lives of potential Americans that are our family members mind you our children our own blood is a very "moral" thing to do.

you should be ashamed of yourself in my opinion putting value on the ruthless terrorist and those that give them a safe haven in which to work from. You put no value on your own. Even the Lord fights and protects His own.

OC

[Openly Curious]

buck, i'm against the use of torture.... but what YOU define as torture and what i define it as (which is how it is defined by the geneva convention standards) are very different things.

just as you find our morality suspect because we don't define torture the same way that you do (dare i ask if you think sleep deprivation is torture?), i find almost every thread you start to be suspect. you post like crazy with the intention of stirring up a hornet's nest rather than posting threads that edify the board or glorify the Lord. so please stop making moral judgements on the rest of us.... the one leg you have to stand on is weak in the knee.

LadyC, you obviously believe that torture is a good thing. Maybe you're a "frustrated FBI agent" or something. Maybe you enjoyed pretending to pull the wings off insects, as a child, and justified it by telling yourself "it can't really be defined as torture because I only scared them, I didn't actually permanently maim them, they were just uncomfortable for a while".

One thing though: How did you get out of my original post that I was "making moral judgements on the rest of you"? I must remind you also that those who advocate torture are very much in the minority on these boards.

Also if you don't like what I say, please don't deal with it by personally attacking me.

No where in Lady C post has she said she get's joy out of inflicting pain on anything

You should be ashamed of yourself for demonizing her that way.

OC

[Guest man]

Please don't take this as an attack on the American government or a personal insult to anyone who might have served, or have a relative serve, in the military. I just want to discuss the morality of torture. And I hope it will not be taken as a thread about "siding with the enemy". I am just commenting from a purely detached viewpoint.

So, presuming the following is true and it is proof that torture does go on. How does everyone feel about it.

How do feel about the hundreds of innocent civilians in Iraq that are kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by the terrorists?

How do you feel about all ones who have their heads hacked off....innocent men, women and children?

I bet if these people had a choice, they would gladly take a stun gun over a knife to the throat.

Where in the post above do get that I'm all for torture? Where do you see it? Show me.

Where did I read anything into what you asked? You asked how I felt about the issue and I told you. If you wanted an answer that was to your liking, you should have told me what to say. I assumed you wanted my honest opinion.

Nick Berg

Daniel Pearl

Paul Johnson

Kim Sun Il

Eugene Armstrong

Jack Hensley

Kenneth Bigley

Enzo Baldoni

Margaret Hassan

If these people could talk, what do you think their opinion would be concerning the torture issue?

For those who don't know the people listed........they were all beheaded.....except Margaret....they shot her in the head.