The Same goal

[Guest K.R.E.B.S]

Hey, it's a funny quote! Hehehe

Either way I'm up there with Darwin. Thanks AAA.

Joe

[ted]

Relax, Ap'

Nobody "hates" science.

Nobody really lays claim to absolute truth, either. We take what we believe to be the word of God by faith. God has not revealed absolute truth to anyone. In fact, He does keep His secrets. Check out Deu 29:29 sometime when you have a free moment to yourself.

We have enough to make a decision, though, and the rest will come in due time.

Science is a tool we use to learn. Although "science" encompasses quite a bit, it essentially just a tool. I encourage scientists to learn all they can and reveal their findings. We can never learn too much, and the ones making strides take up my slack when my limited intelligence leaves me far behind them.

More power to 'em, I say.

Scientists trying to find answers are not a problem. The problem comes when they publish their works and others take small parts of their work and run too far with them. Words like "could indicate" or "possibly" or "from what we can see" or "studies indicate" are supposed to inform us that they are not claiming absolute knowledge, but rather simply what they have found during their studies. Many times, though, these words get lost in the shuffle. They kind of disappear when someone else grabs the ball and runs with it.

Know what I mean?

The same thing happens with people who follow God's word, too. People want to read way too far into simple messages, and false doctrines flow through these interpretations.

So, when I see these images of far-off planets and nebulas and galaxies, I think "Wow!". We may never know the true extent of our universe, but we make strides in new discoveries quite often. It opens new doors and gives us yet another look into our relationship with the rest of the universe.

The same thing happens when I see new stuff discovered about our own planet, too.

When I think of what science has enabled us to discover and do over the course of human history, I'm truly astounded. Each time we try to answer a question, it seems like a thousand more come into view.

I just happen to believe in God, too. No big thing, really, but I do.

We think we are in awe when we make new scientific discoveries, but I can't help to think that our knowledge will pale in comparison to what God will reveal to us eventually.

Nobody hates science, but some, like me, hate the fact that people abuse discoveries.

Then again, let me rephrase that. There are, actually, people who hate science and scientists. There are also people who hate God. Both "hates" are mutually absurd, I would say.

You?

t.

[cjrose]

(I do not know why my quotes aren't working so my responses are in blue)

I think most religious people aim for the same goal as those of atheist, we're just approaching the problem from different sides.

While you hope you improve the condition of human spirit, we (atheists) are more focused on the objective and easily measurable value like living conditions

In other words, concerned with what the world has to offer instead of looking beyond this temporary existence.

Atheists are not anti-spiritual persons

Our definitions are obviously different if you consider science spiritual which I find unusual since many claim spirituality and science have nothing to do with each other. Science requires logic and tangible proof. But science is a continous searching for discovery and fact in which some never come to any sensical conclusion.

Religon gives you guys a sense that you belong to something greater, and science does the same for us. Just like God and saints humbles you, the discoveries of Science humbles us.

That is a new statement I've yet to hear. Firstly, it isn't religion that gives us a sense of a belonging but Christ Himself in a very personal way that involves abundant love, Spiritual gifts that allow us to comprehend and gain knowledge of the Scriptures, peace and joy that is so beyond a non believer or athiests capability to understand, an awareness deeper than any scientific experiement could possibly provide. I can relate to being humbled by a discovery that can eventually be fallable therfore the temporary emotion or sense of being humble doesn't last. And who is it you are humble for?

Something tangible that offers proof? Something that will eventually become decayed as you move on to another "humbling" scientific project that gives you a sense more of acomplisment and achievement and with that comes pride. I have never encountered a scientist who is humble but filled with satisfaction and the desire to bring others into the discovery ( there in that we desire to bring others to the discovery do have in common). Scientists will continuously search where we as Spiritual beings have found the answer and continue to grow in the wisdom that Scriptures offer, that are our daily bread, our counsel, our guidence with the Holy Spirit that dwells in us as a gift to comprehend Gods Truth. We are content in the fact that our searching is over and our journey has many great lessons to offer.

I'm not sure how many of you are aquainted to the Cassini-Hygen missions to Saturn, but I would like to share a picture that produced the same wonder for us as you may find in your spiritual experiences.

What is to think about. It is beautiful because God created it. There is a vast universe or more out there beyond what we know and God created all of it. You see it from a scientific perspective as we see it as another of Gods works. Amazing, mysterious, part of the grand design and there for scientists to examine. Can a scientist explain the Universe and planets and why some stars are clustered or take the shape of a spoon? Can a scientist answer these questions and does it compell him/her to buy tons of expensive equipment, monitors, tons of notebooks and months or years attempting to find answers? Where as we see it and accept it in gratitude and praise for such a vision and mysteries that we have to look forward to knowing that the answers will come in perfection in time.

This is a picture of Saturn eclipse, where Saturn is eclipsing the sun from the observer.

Something to think about... This vantage point has NEVER been seen by a living human since the dawn of life, WE are seeing it for the first time through the eyes of science. The little insignificant spek behind the ring near the top left of the right is our Earth, everyone you ever know, you ever loved, you ever hated is on that ping point of light, all the wars ever fought for was for an insignificant plot of land or an insignificant idea is on that dust. What do you feel?

You are being allowed to see it in God's timing. This didn't just appear to us because of science. Well, yes, I agree that advanced technology makes for more possibility but it really has little significance if God desired to keep it hidden He's allowing us to use our technology and making what couldn't be seen before available to us. Can you not try to imagine a huge hand gently nudging it into view? Hmmmmmmmmmm Something to think about.

Look at the molecule of DNA, it is so simple, much simpler than any protein, but thats what connects every living thing that had ever lived on this planet. You are coded in the same way as the blade of grass, as your neighbors, as your significant other, as your worst and most hated enemies.

Yes, do look at that! How could we evolve with such detail, such uniqueness in our genetic makeup where out of a billion human beings on this planet, not one has the same fingerprint and yet our organs were developed so precisley as to need each other to function properly. Every human being is unigue and created that way by the Lord who knows every hair on our head.

The "pillar of creation" in the Eagle Nebula, something to think about, each of the blobs of gas on the top left pillar is the size of the entire solar system, not the sun, but the ENTIRE solar system including its planets.

Is it really the entire solar system or could there be more? Hmmmmm something to think about. There could be another entire solar system millions and millions etc.. light years away, how will science find it or maybe more than one. If you really think about what is out there, we are so tiny in comparison.

These are the things that in science that induces the sense of wonder and spirituality of atheist scientists, does it appeal to you the same way?

There are many definitions of "spirituality" many organizations claim to be spiritual when they believe that the earth, fire, water, air is a natural spirituality. Pagans claim to be spiritual, psychics claim to be spiritual using their "gift" for profit. Scientoligist claim spirituality as Werner Erhardts EST so spiritual. I know because I have been through both and more on my quest for the truth. There is only one Spirituality and that is from God. Others are false and worship that which is of the world. I can relate to what you are saying and believe it or not understand it as I have been there. I've walked alone on the beach and felt a sense of peace but when I walked on the beach knowing and believing in the Lord lifted me to another dimension of peace. A heavenly realm that only can be experienced by having a personal relationship with Jesus who intercedes for us to the Father who is the Ultimate power behind what you so obviously do not take for granted but appreciate and yet in a singular space inside the box.

But Science isn't about just that, what it offers, the propect and promise is much more amazing than these images. With Science we could GO there, we could see the stars, the nebulae, see with our own eyes what the Saturn eclipse looked like, view the Jupiter rise on its moon. Science not only awes, but empowers humanity. We could with science wave away all the sufferings of the world, the hunger and deaths, the sick and the poor, are these not the same goals?

Yes, I imagine to an athiest, our possibilities are endless but still they are limited to man and what man can accomplish with what he has to work with depending on putting together and still flawed as it is, to get us into space. As children of God, one day we shall roam freely amonst the stars as it will be our playground in the Heavens. I can sense that you have a deeper awarness of the intricacies and appreciate the advancement we have made over the years as well as the unfathomable beauty of that which is just beyond our reach and yet not beyond our sight. Why are these planets so unique and beautiful and so very very far away? Why isn't there another earth with living human beings breathing air as just the opposite of space where we need equipment to keep us grounded and breathing. Do scientists have the answers to why we have gravity here and why it grows dark as you enter space? Why we have food and water and are able to grow fruits and vegitables, why we can walk and not float away? I'm sure there are "answers" scientists have attempted to explain but the truth is, science does not have all the answers which is why they continue to search for them.

What baffles me is that how a God suppose he exist would judge a person based on what they believe in, is the sense of justice shared among religions and nonreligous people not equal?

Firstly, God does exist. He is a loving merciful graceful God who sent His Son in the flesh, sinless, yet feeling emotions of anger, grief, mourning, joy, peace, just as we do, as a messenger of the good news of eternal life and that salvation is within our grasp if we choose to follow Him. I'm not quite sure of your question here but I will say this, God wishes for none to perish but have eternal life which is why He sacrifced His Son to a tortured gruesome death, that by His blood shed on the cross, we are saved by repentence, as His death paid for our sins, past, present and future for those who accept Him and repent, obey and those go on to plant His seed in the hope it will grow and produce more fruit. He is Judge, He is King, He is the Alpha and Omega.

There is no religion in that but the truth of God as spoken through the prophets inspired by His Holy Spirit that the generations to follow can know Jesus lives. All are equal in His sight but those who deny Him deny their own eternal life's salvation. We are all sinners. Not one among us is sinless which is why we have accountability to Him and follow His commands not for His Judgement but for our good, our protection. Those that do not know Him do not know His compassion and mercy and abundant love. His promise never to give us more than we can bear and there is hope at the end of our oppression. He does not play favorites but allows all to choose of their own free will. Would you want to force someone to love you? I doubt it. You would want them to love you because they choose to as is much the same with God on an grander scale you can experience if you put your scientific thinking into all He offers which at this moment is beyond all comprehension. And I do not mean that disrespectuflly and am not implying anything about your intelligence or compassion. I can see that you have a great appreciation for our surroundings many take for granted. Surroundings God created.

Are atheist's sense of empathy and compassion somehow inferior? It would be utterly illogical to proclaim a God who would nitpick with humans about if they really believed in him. Does he really place believe in him over the moral actions of humans? Why would it matter if someone believed in him or not, if he existed, somebody believe in him does not make him nonexistent. If he was an objective God, he would judge you by your moral actions and character, not your faith in him.

As it is with all who deny Christ, you are among many who have a distorted view of His compassion and mercy. What is it that you feel is "nit picking" And no, athiests are human beings who can have great compassion. There is no inferior in God. But nitpick? That is a new one. He reveals Himself to me in many ways and teaches me to be humble if I get to cocky or draws me back to Him if I become complacent. You ask about Him being an objective God and judging us on moral actions and character and you can be a wonderful person, doing great works in helping others, sacraficing yourself in doing for others and be of exemplary character. But if you do not accept the Son, Jesus, you cannot know Him. You would know Him if you accepted Jesus and know that good works are a result of a personal relationship. It is your faith that allows you to comprehend Him and know that His love for you is so great that what little we give Him in repentance He gives back so much more.

I can sense your gratitude in the wonders of science and discoveries but it shifted in the next phase of your post to a place where science can't begin to explain and man is left to come to his own conclusions with a jaded view of a judgmental God with all these rules and another conclusion that He plays favorites. For a intellectual and fundamental "show me the proof and possibilites" person, above one could say you search for discoveries of your own design but when it comes to discovering God, you completely shut down and state what you interpret from a worldly point of view. Do not scientists have a compelling desire to discover what makes everything and anything work? Including the possibility of a Creator? You must have some sense of God or you wouldn't speak of Him accusing Him of being a God that picks and chooses and punishes. Do scientists not have the capacity for wonder of the possibility you may be wrong in thinking you know all about Him without an attempt to understand and seek answers? Do you think all Christians are merely followers of a deity that is cruel and full of anger? Why then would we follow such a leader? What is it that the Lord offers that so encompasses us so profoundly that we would die for Him? Love beyond imagination, peace, joy, security and wisdom, quiet gentleness and a strong desire to share with others without an ounce of selfishness in wanting keep Him to ourselves. Hmmmmmm something to think about perhaps?

This is why I believe in Science and not God, his very nature confounds me, and if he did exist and he was such jealous character that would judge me to hell because I didnt believe in him dispite the hundreds of life that I aimed to save and possibly saved through disbelieve and science, then hes not the type of God that I would EVER believe in. I judge his actions immoral and I'd rather burn in hell than to submit. And why rely on him? Why wait to get into heaven after death, when you can create your own on earth?

You just contradicted yourself by offering reasons not to believe in Him but to deny His existence. Speaking of Him and what you find keeps you from "believing" in how you view His character so, you do believe in God? It sounds like you do to me. It also sounds like you have had influences that have led you to what mans conclusion is and I hear it so often. God is jealous.. yes, not like our jealously because He is Omniscience, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. Your human jealousy is quite different to His jealousy and taken out of context without asking more questions will in the end lead you to your own belief system keeping you from wanting to discover or... think that the jealousy you seem to think is of a human nature is of a Godly nature we cannot comprehend. That is where our growth begins as we read His Word and come to know Him. Again, you must believe though you say you don't because you stated you judge His actions... what actions? And would rather burn in Hell than to submit. Do you even know what you would be submitting to and how much you would recieve in return for not submission in that you would turn into a slave but a surrender in exchange for the abundant love and gifts He immediately gives us, some come when we are ready to recieve them but Faith is a gift, a desire to obey comes so naturally and a knowledge you cannot comprehend at this moment in that statement. Earth, friend, is going to perish. The only Heaven on earth is communion with the Lord. A very small though large to us piece of Heaven very obtainable.

So, if you were to create Heaven on earth, how would you do it? Things? Success? Power? Money? Beachfront property and a bank account that is endless? I am seriously not mocking you but sincerely want to know what your idea of Heaven on earth while denying God would be? How long would it last? Would it really make you happy and content? Even through adversity? Let's face it. EVERYONE goes through hard times. Even us Christians do.

I would believe in a God if he she didn't nit pick about insignificant details.

I would believe value of your moral actions is considered absolute more important over your believe orientations.

I would believe in a God that did not claim to have influence over the material universe.

I would believe the God of Truth and not faith.

I would believe in the God that promotes progress instead of stasis.

Huh??

Think about it, why cant your god promote scientific progress? Why MUST he be involved in the creation of EVERYTHING? Wouldnt it be logical for you to deduce that since God gave you intelligence, you should use it to know MORE about he universe? Is there no possibility that the bible might be the work of man and not the intention of God? Is it so inconceivable that maybe God just left the universe alone and allowed evolution to occur and that he really wanted you to find that out. Is it really so inconcievable that he is not a God of Science, one that promote us to be doubtful, and to judge based on evidence, and to accept the truth no matter how unfriendly it might seem? Whats wrong with a God of Doubt, a God of Truth? Whats wrong with a God that considers Science as a form of worship?

Well, who are you addressing when you say "think about it" since we know God is true and science has it's flaws where the Lord is perfection. We have thought about it... for a sec before we choose Him So you are asking us to think about it when we have... long ago for some, not so long ago for others. Someone comes to Christ everyday just as there is death and new life everyday. Now you are sounding like a jealous one whining because God is involved in the creation of everything. If God gave us intelligence, where did yours come from? It isn't inconcievable that God is a God of science. He created that too Sounds like you are the one who is now nitpicking and judging without all the facts. So, why don't you hang around and continue to ask questions. take on Project God, make notes, read His Word. hang out with believers and then make an intellectual decision. You may find you want what Christians have as you become friendly and your view may change. Hmmmmmmmmmmm something to think about....

Peace

[Candi770]

By your definition God is a fan of cruel and unusual punishment, of course, you could say that "oh he didnt punish us, the devil is" then I could say hes guilty of neglect. Plus, if he was as Good as you claim him to be, why would ANYONE rebel against him? Why would the devil think so illy of him? Of course you could say its in the Devil's nature to... wait... God, who is responsible for creation of EVERYTHING in the universe, could not fix this slight problem of evil? Why did he create evil, was it for his own amusement?

Consider this; Adam and Jesus. BOth uniquely fathered by God. Both were tempted by Satan- Adam is an a perfect Garden, but Jesus in a barren Wilderness. But while Adam obeyed Satan and forfeited dominion over nature, Jesus obeyed God and exercised dominion over nature.

It was the choice of a created "perfect" man who was deceived by a fallen angel. Adam wasn't stupid (prior to the fall)He knew what he was getting into, Hello, He talked to God daily, knew God intimately, He knew that if he sinned Death would occur, but Satan said, you wouldn't truely die, well, yes, he died Spiritually and He eventually died physically.I don't know if anyone ever knew God as well as he. We know according to the bible that Abraham was called a friend of God. But Adam, He was warned, why did he feel the need to gain more than what God already gave him. He caused his own trouble, Hello, did you think that after Satan was kicked out of heaven with a third of the angels that it could remain perfect. Don't you think that satan was a little mad?? Satan made the choice to deceive Adam for the express reason of taking Dominion of the earth. Now, satan will take as much people with him as he can. If you don't commit yourselve to God, then you are his, plain and simple.

Now consider how deceived the remainder of us can be, if 1. we are not walking in the "pre-fallen" state of Adam. Don't you think that Satan just loves adding one more to the fire, getting even with the God who wouldn't allow him to exalt his throne over. We are made in the image of God. It's easy for satan to blind those who don't know the truth.

But, I'm not going to even totally blame the devil here either. We all have a choice in the matter. You either choose life or death. Life being with Christ or death because of Sin. You have a choice, don't blame the one who gives you a choice.

The Law of sin and death is upon those who do not believe, that is why you feel the unfairness of the deal. But you see, we Christians have been made free from the Law of sin and death, just because of what Jesus Did and because we have made him Lord of our life: When we think about the Lord, we feel his Grace, we know his Grace and mercy, We only feel judgement when we ourselves give into sin and walk that way. We both can decide to turn our backs to sin, repent and by faith make Jesus Christ Lord of our life. We all have more hope than the first Adam did, we have his grace and mercy.

[Floatingaxe]

By your definition God is a fan of cruel and unusual punishment, of course, you could say that "oh he didnt punish us, the devil is" then I could say hes guilty of neglect. Plus, if he was as Good as you claim him to be, why would ANYONE rebel against him? Why would the devil think so illy of him? Of course you could say its in the Devil's nature to... wait... God, who is responsible for creation of EVERYTHING in the universe, could not fix this slight problem of evil? Why did he create evil, was it for his own amusement?

Consider this; Adam and Jesus. BOth uniquely fathered by God. Both were tempted by Satan- Adam is an a perfect Garden, but Jesus in a barren Wilderness. But while Adam obeyed Satan and forfeited dominion over nature, Jesus obeyed God and exercised dominion over nature.

It was the choice of a created "perfect" man who was deceived by a fallen angel. Adam wasn't stupid (prior to the fall)He knew what he was getting into, Hello, He talked to God daily, knew God intimately, He knew that if he sinned Death would occur, but Satan said, you wouldn't truely die, well, yes, he died Spiritually and He eventually died physically.I don't know if anyone ever knew God as well as he. We know according to the bible that Abraham was called a friend of God. But Adam, He was warned, why did he feel the need to gain more than what God already gave him. He caused his own trouble, Hello, did you think that after Satan was kicked out of heaven with a third of the angels that it could remain perfect. Don't you think that satan was a little mad?? Satan made the choice to deceive Adam for the express reason of taking Dominion of the earth. Now, satan will take as much people with him as he can. If you don't commit yourselve to God, then you are his, plain and simple.

Now consider how deceived the remainder of us can be, if 1. we are not walking in the "pre-fallen" state of Adam. Don't you think that Satan just loves adding one more to the fire, getting even with the God who wouldn't allow him to exalt his throne over. We are made in the image of God. It's easy for satan to blind those who don't know the truth.

But, I'm not going to even totally blame the devil here either. We all have a choice in the matter. You either choose life or death. Life being with Christ or death because of Sin. You have a choice, don't blame the one who gives you a choice.

The Law of sin and death is upon those who do not believe, that is why you feel the unfairness of the deal. But you see, we Christians have been made free from the Law of sin and death, just because of what Jesus Did and because we have made him Lord of our life: When we think about the Lord, we feel his Grace, we know his Grace and mercy, We only feel judgement when we ourselves give into sin and walk that way. We both can decide to turn our backs to sin, repent and by faith make Jesus Christ Lord of our life. We all have more hope than the first Adam did, we have his grace and mercy.

Absolutely right on, Candi!