John 14 and the New Jerusalem

[Ovedya]

Saints,

I've been considering the direction this thread has been going over the past two days, and it seems good to me to just go ahead and drop the issue altogether.

This thread began as a simple question of what I believe concerning heaven. I did my best to answer that question, and provided what I believe to be a very scholarly resource as reference material. When I first read that journal myself it completely changed my outlook of the subjects of John 14 and the New Jerusalem respectively. I referenced those materials in the hope that profitable discussion regarding the points made in them could be discussed and/or debated politely and in the spirit of true fellowship.

Since beginning this thread, however, I have constantly been on the defense. I have been misquoted, had my words twisted into contrary arguments, and been accused of personally attacking people. I had honestly hoped that clear open-minded discussion could have come from this subject. But it appears to me that proper consideration has not been remotely given to the arguments I have presented. I therefore am content to simply let this go with no ill feelings toward anyone who has posted here.

In closing I would like you all to consider something that I read this morning. I feel that it is applicable in this, as well as many other situations:

In Acts 19 Paul entered the synagogue in Ephesis and spoke for three months boldly, reasoning and persuading those there in all the things concerning the kingdom of God. But some of those there were hardened, and would not be persuaded, and even began speaking evil of The Way. Paul simply departed from there, and taught those who would listen in a school for two years. So in one place there were those who listened and refused to believe, and in another place there were those who listened, believed, and learned.

This should be a lesson to all of us. We are not immune to the kind of hardening of heart that those in the synagogues experienced. Take care that you don't become like those who would not be persuaded. Those that listened and believed were able to be taught for two years. But those that refused to listen eventually began to speak evil of The Way, and they remained blinded by religion (2 Cor. 3:14).

The key is first to listen. In order to listen you first need to have an open heart and a willingness to learn.

[Floatingaxe]

Good thing I have had an open heart to learn since I was saved at age 10, 44 years ago. Still learning! God is good and faithful to teach when one's heart is open to His Word and His Holy Spirit speaking.

We are all in process, and some have learned some major truths, some have yet to learn them. By no means, though are we to reject the ones we have been solidly counselled on by God. Amen?

Blessings, Ovedya!

I trust you have not felt insult by my posts.

[GeneV]

In keeping with the understnding of words, I happen to believe that "house" also denotes "kingdom, realm". It fits with Jesus' words.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A, so "house" can mean "kingdom, realm," but "mansions" has to mean "mansions."

?

God's HOUSE is limitless...His universe is His realm, His house. A mansion is also a huge house! Why limit God? Jesus said it, and so it means just as He says. Who in one's right mind would be thinking literally, "house" with brick and mortar and limiting its size by one's puny human comprehension?! We will rule and reign with Christ forever and His house is our home, wherever and however it is! Please--this is just plain silliness! (spiritually discerned, of course! )

When Jesus says something, try to expand your mind to accept it, rather than dismissing it in your own way, disguising it as acceptance.

Yes. Why limit God? If Jesus death and resurrection was His going to prepare a place for us in the Father, so that all who believe into Him could be the mutual abodes (That is, God in man, man in God) in the Father's house, why resort to an interpretation that is solely based in the earthly realm?

It is Jesus Himself who used such language! Why not take Him at His word? Why change it and make it say something He does not say? He isn't always figurative in His speech. It is so much more freeing to relax and listen to His words and take them the way He delivered them.

Now that is good theology!!!!!

[Ovedya]

Butero,

The journal I wrote about is in this post: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=718105

I later added a link to show that the authors of the journal I referenced earlier are not exclusive in their interpretations on the subjects. Rather than reading the articles and discussing their content, the answers were simply, "They are wrong because I say so." That is not a foundation for mutual fellowship or respctful discussion.

The principal with Paul was that he was attempting to persuade his contemporaries concerning the truth of the Way. They were content to remain under the veil of their religion. But then again, I have a feeling you would probably disagree with that interpretation.

Again, I am dropping the subject.

Grace to you,

Ovedya

[Ovedya]

The author also states that the only way one could arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is preparing a place for us, is by reading John 14:1ff. He states that the real message of that passage is not that Jesus is preparing a place for us, but that it refers to God coming to make His abode with believers. So the abodes being spoken of here are not places, but believers. Is that a fair summary?

Yes, I believe that is a fair summary of that particular article. Although I think the journal which I earlier referenced is a little more in depth.

In looking back at your response Ovedya, it appears that you left out portions of the exchange between yourself and EricH when you said what you did, but you never claimed that the other things he said about the author were wrong, and continued to lift up the article as a whole for being more indepth.

I didn't leave anything out. I didn't lift up that article at all. I've only promoted the online Journal (which is articles long) from the Affirmation and Critique site. It looks like that site is down today for some reason....

[Ovedya]

Then read the journal (When the link works). It's more in-depth, as you can see from the few times I cited portions of it.

[Ovedya]

Here is another article I found on the web: http://www.vineyard.ca/engine.cfm?i=47&amp...0000618&e=0

Check out footnote 5.

I haven't read the entire article, but I agree with that footnote.

[Openly Curious]

I have always loved The Pilgrim's Progress' (by John Bunyon) description of apporaching the city of Heaven. It is a story of one called Christian and his dream ofthe journey of life, and at the end, death. It is beautiful storytelling and poetry, yet it gives us a glimpse, a possibility, a look through a glass darkly. Here is a brief part of it as Christian reached the gates of the city.

Now, while they were thus drawing towards the gate, behold a company of the heavenly host came out to meet them; to whom it was said, by the other two Shining Ones, "These are the men that have loved our Lord when they were in the world, and that have left all for his holy Name; and he hath sent us to fetch them, and we have brought them thus far on their desired journey, that they may go in and look their Redeemer in the face with joy." Then the heavenly host gave a great shout, saying, "Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb".

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God." Revelation 19:9

There came out also at this time, to meet them, several of the King's trumpeters, clothed in white and shining raiment; who, with melodious noises, and loud, made even the heavens to echo with their sound. These trumpeters saluted CHRISTIAN and his fellow with ten thousand welcomes, from the world: and this they did with shouting and sound of trumpet.

This done, they compassed them round on every side: some went before, some behind, and some on the right hand, some on the left (as 'twere to guide them through the upper regions); continually sounding as they went, with melodious noise, in notes on high; so that the very sight was, to them that could behold it, as if heaven itself was come down to meet them. Thus, therefore, they walked on together; and as they walked, ever and anon these trumpeters, even, with joyful sound, would, by mixing their music with looks and gestures, still signify to CHRISTIAN and his brother how welcome they were into their company, and with what gladness they came to meet them. And now were these two men, as 't were, in heaven, before they came at it; being swallowed up with the sight of angels, and with hearing of their melodious notes. Here also they had the City itself in view; and they thought they heard all the bells therein to ring, to welcome them thereto; but, above all, the warm and joyful thoughts that they had about their own dwelling there, with such company, and that for ever and ever. Oh, by what tongue or pen can their glorious joy be expressed! And thus they came up to the gate.

Now when they were come up to the gate, there was written over it, in letters of gold, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the City".

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

Then I saw in my dream, that the shining men bid them call at the gate, the which when they did, some from above looked over the gate: to wit, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; to whom it was said, "These pilgrims are come from the city of Destruction, for the love that they bear to the King of this place." And then the pilgrims gave in unto them each man his certificate, which they had received in the beginning; those, therefore were carried in to the King, who, when he had read them, said "Where are the men?" To whom it was answered, "They are standing without the gate." The King then commanded to open the gate, "That the righteous nation," said he, "that keeps truth, may enter in".

"Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in." Isaiah 26:2

Now I saw in my dream, that these two men went in at the gate; and lo, as they entered, they were transfigured; and they had raiment put on that shone like gold. There were also those that met them with harps and crowns, and gave them to them; the harps to praise withal, and the crowns in token of honour. Then I heard in my dream, that all the bells in the City rang again for joy; and that it was said unto them, "Enter ye into the joy of your Lord." I also heard the men themselves, that they sang with a loud voice, saying, "Blessing, honour, glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever".

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13, 14

Now, just as the gates were opened to let in the men, I looked in after them: and behold, the City shone like the sun: the streets also were paved with gold; and in them walked many men, with crowns on their heads, palms in their hands, and golden harps to sing praises withal.

There were also of them that had wings; and they answered one another without intermission, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord!" And after that they shut up the gates, which when I had seen, I wished myself among them.

I got this from this source.

Yes, the Pilgrim's Progress is literature, a fictional account. Yet, how are we to know exactly how it will be since eye hath not seen? What we have are the words that were given to us and what we have from them is interpretation. How can we explain something that is not within our imagination? How can we explain that which we have not seen? How can the blind explain color?

There is a CD called City of Gold that was done based on the Pilgrim's Progress. In it there is a poem where a man is almost grieving leaving this world, this earth, because as he so beautifully words it, "it is all I know." And that part is very correct - this is all we know.

The Lord so beautifully described heaven for us, in a way we can understand. Yet, we have no real idea of it's majesty because seated in the middle is the Father. WE cannot imagine the glory, the awesomeness, the profound amazement of being in His presence. Yet, we shall kneel before Him.

We have to trust that however heaven is laid out, whoever is correct n their interpretation of it, that our Lord is faithful and just and we will be with Him forever in a place that HE prepared for us. Imagine that - a place that HE PREPARED FOR US.

We should rejoice in that and not debate the way the streets are built, just know that they ARE being built.

My opinion, anyways.

Great post Traveller,

Pilgrim's Progress was a great book a classic no doubt. I have a hard back copy of it and it really bring out our earthly struggles and how we must press forward. It was just great is all I can say about it and would recommend others to read it.

but anyways thought your post was great.

OC