ELECTION or FREE WILL

[eric]

FoC said,

I do not believe that God was looking for mindless drone zombies.

He wanted a being that when shown a small fire on a mountain would turn aside and go see what that fire was...one who when He knocks is capable of making the decision to open the door and answer on its own.

No one is suggesting that God wanted zombies or puppets. That's why He gave man a brain to choose right from wrong. After all Solomon said in Eccl.12:13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the duty of man.

You can't exercise your own free will, as you call it, and obey God at the same time and obtain salvation and eternal life, because if your will doesn't line up with His will you are in deep schtook.

[kjn]

Hi eric,

Almost right. We are ALL ALREADY damned to eternal fire. If God chooses to save some of us, is He unjust. Like the Governor of a State pardoning a lifer in prison. Is he unjust to the other prisoners to choose just two prisoners.

The natural man has no choice to not sin. He cannot but help to sin.

We are chosen to salvation. Even faith is a gift from God. It is all Jesus Christ.

LT

[kjn]

I have to be honest and say that it does not make me grateful to simply say 'at least I'm in the kingdom of God.' It does matter to me that hell is torment that is unending. It does matter to me that if God chose some and not others, then it means that God created people and then sends/allows some to go to hell. If God is love, then love instituted hell and apparently controls who goes there. How does that make me want to be associated with Him? That is why this question of 'election or free will' is of interest to me.

[eric]

kjn, This topic is an ongoing one and we can only draw coclusions from how we interpret the word from our own point of view.

I can't understand the people who think along the lines that God knew a million years or whatever, before the foundation of the world, that he knew that tomorrw jack would meet Jill and they would wed and produce little Joe who he has assigned to damnation before he is even born, but when his brother Jesse is born God has assigned him to salvation. It doesn't fit the nature and character that I understand from a loving father.

I believe from our conception in our mother's womd, our names are written in the lambs book of life and will remain there until we die worthy or not of salvaion or damnation. If you don't come up to His standard, then, your name is blotted out of the book.

2Peter3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all shall come to repentence. We have not got a free will in the matter, God holds all the trumps.

Well that's that long and short of my beliefs and I don't care a toss about Calvin's theory of no choice.........I'm done here.

[Floatingaxe]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

[RustyAngeL]

Faith always comes first. We walk by faith not by sight.

[eric]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

Just one more flaxe. there's a big difference in God knowing who will and will not accept Jesus, once they have been conceived, than the idea of calvanists that say God has already assigned them to hell before they were evn born, with out giving them the choice........that's all.

[Zceiv]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

I Beleive all will choose hell unless God steps in.

Here is a quote from a site

Sin corrupts the whole person -- emotions, will, and intellect.

Although this is so, we are not as bad as we could be; we could be worse. We are, as Palmer puts it, not as intensively evil as possible; but we are as extensively evil as possible. [Palm.5P, 9] For example, while we as individuals may lie and cheat, this does not mean that we will go as far as murder.

We are incapable of a truly good act of our own selves. Any good deeds we do (outside of Christ) is merely a "relative" good deed. A truly good deed is done for the glory of God; unbelievers are incapable of this.

The supreme point following from these three: We are unable of ourselves to turn to Christ to be saved.

[larryt]

Hi eric,

Almost right. We are ALL ALREADY damned to eternal fire. If God chooses to save some of us, is He unjust. Like the Governor of a State pardoning a lifer in prison. Is he unjust to the other prisoners to choose just two prisoners.

The natural man has no choice to not sin. He cannot but help to sin.

We are chosen to salvation. Even faith is a gift from God. It is all Jesus Christ.

LT

If God chooses to save some, that means that He chose not to save others? And I guess it gives me no desire to be associated with the God who makes that choice, if the person next to me is already non-chosen and destined for hell.

[Zceiv]

So God hated Esau even before he was born.

LT

Now....did God hate Esau because He simply chose to or did God hate Esau because He knew what kind of man Esau would be?

I thought God hated the sin but loved the sinner?