Trinity

[Mutzrein]

Thankyou folks. I am humbled by your gracious responses.

The Lord bless you

[Guest]

Who do I say that Jesus is? I've already said it:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God

[Mutzrein]

My response in RED. Hope that is OK

Praise the Lord Joe

Love in Jesus,

EphesiansGal xxxx

Who do I say that Jesus is? I've already said it:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God

[Guest]

My response in RED. Hope that is OK

If Jesus is not God but just a man, how could he make this God like promise.....

But I have never said that Jesus is just a man. He is the son of God.

God is usually Caped i.e. Jesus, Eternal Son of God

Beloved.....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Ephesians 3:20-21)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[hupo]

Blessings to you too EphesiansGal

Blessings Hupo,

My not quoting scripture is a habit I have developed in my own group. I apologise for assuming you would know the scriptures to which each part of my email refers.

I'm probably older in years than many in this forum but still in the crawling stage as far as scripture is concerned, and you cannot possibly know this

Actually it kind of highlights a general point relevant to the discussion, which is the matter of revelation. There is a big difference between reading the scriptures and having mindful understanding of them alone, and having them revealed to your interior through the Holy Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 3:3). The latter is evidence of God active and there is no mistaking His voice. Unfortunately many in the church labour under the yoke of religion and are unable to come to faith, which means study can be real hard work. No matter. Everything is put right by taking the Gospel steps I mentioned, and then Jesus will accomplish all.

Are you saying that studying the Bible is not the most important way of having a relationship with God? If so, where does Bible study stand in the scheme of things.

I have to say that many a time I have questioned the standing of Bible study as the ONLY means to understand God, especially when one takes into account the many who cannot read, don't have access to His Word, or have never heard of it for whatever reason.

Yet todays technology allows for the Bible to be accessed by almost everyone.

I also find that inveriably, Bible study is based on our human understanding, which falls far short of what we need to understand God.

I find this a paradox not yet resolved (in my mind)

The power of God is inarguable as you say. The fact that it is missing in the church very largely is due to a number of things: unbelief, false doctrine, ignorance, rebellion and false authority to name but a few. Where God truly is, there are healings, deliverances, genuine spiritual conversions, and many miraculous things that evidence the interaction of a loving God with His people.

Yes, I find that too but I also find that while I see others faltering in their walk, there is a hugh mirror there reflecting me with all my faults and mistakes too.

Not very pleasant to see, yet Yeshua told us to be witnesses and not judges

This is why I teach fundamentals of faith such as salvation through the Gospel message, and the baptism with the Holy Ghost, because once these steps are taken and real spiritual experience is tasted, God Himself does the teaching and all is well.

Romans 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Believing anything blindly as you say is a danger. Where salvation is concerned, ovbiously the danger is much more serious and carries eternal consequences. Therefore read the Word of God, especially the New Testament. Read it until the sparks begin to fly in your insides and you know God is speaking to you Himself. (see 2Tim2 esp v 15) Read it prayerfully and coupled with faith. Know that without faith it is impossible to please Him, but that faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains.

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Matthew 17 esp vv 18-20

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

See how you cannot separate the power of God from the faith of His people? If we want to see Him come in power, we have to believe.

Believing blindly is a danger but believing with too many questions may lead away from faith

i.e. "If I don't understand what I believe in how can I believe it?"

I find a hugh stumbling block in trying to understand the un-understandable.

There are things we just have to take on faith..... lets see.......... oh yes....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

The Word was with God, says that the Word and God are two distinct enteties. Yet in the same verse it says that the Word was God, which means they are one and the same!! The way we understand this paradox can be the difference between Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians. That's all it takes for doctrines to part and go each their own way. There is nothing wrong with the truth. The cause of this split is the way we (human beings) understand this verse.

To the unasked question "how do YOU understand it?" - I don't !

I accept the Truth as the Truth regardless of my understanding of it.

Still, this in turn sounds very much like "Blind Faith" Go figure.....

One last point, our God is supremely loving, merciful and compassionate. He does not stand over you with a big stick waiting for you to fail. He lovingly calls you into living faith, which is relationship with Him through Jesus. Short cut all your learning by trying to stay humble before Him, admitting your error and weaknesses and lack of knowledge. God resists the proud, but to the humble gives grace. Such grace is what makes possible a relationship between a perfect God and an imperfect and constantly failing people, praise the Lord.

Pride.............. I don't conceder myself a proud person externally but internally .......

you know, if God is gracefull to the humble. How much more grace does He have for me with all that inner pride

1 Peter 5:5-7

5 "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. "

Much love from EphesiansGal

xxxxx

Amen !!

Love and Blessings to you in Yeshua's name

[Ovedya]

I want to point out that the Trinity is an accepted doctrine of the faith and one of those measures by which ministries are measured to be orthodox or unorthodox. A believer's salvation in Christ is certainly not measured in the same way. Whether a believer agrees or disagrees with the Trinity, has a different view or understanding of the Trinity, or disbelieves the Trinity doctrine entirely, in no way compromises his or her salvation. Salvation is by life not doctrine.

Can you please provide Scripture to support this statement? Salvation is by faith, yes, but faith in what? What if I have "faith" that Jesus didn't really die...am I going to heaven? How can a person deny the Diety of Christ and still be saved?

Denial of the deity of Christ is not the same as using the doctrine of the Trinity to confirm or reject a person's salvation. The Scriptures affirm clearly that if anyone denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh he is not of Him. However, the doctrine of the Trinity being used as a measure of ones faith in Christ is purely religious in nature.

lol..now I'm more confused. Doesn't the denial of the Trinity inherently mean a person must deny the Diety of Christ? Therefore, if a person denies this, they cannot have salvation. I'm really confused about how you are wording this. Are we saying the same thing?

I'm having the same problem. I'm not understanding how one can deny the reality of the Trinity and not deny Christ and the Holy Spirit. And, if you deny Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved. And, if you deny the Holy Spirit, isn't that tantamount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

So one must believe that the Father is God, or you may as well throw out the Old Testament and much of the New. One must believe that Jesus is God, or His life and death have little meaning and value. And if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit........

Yep, you got me confused too, Ovedya.

Please note that I am talking about the use of the doctrine of the Trinity to determine whether someone is "of the faith" or of Christ. There is not a single verse or verse in the new Testament which require any believer to conform to the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be considered "of Christ." What if one believer receives the definition of the Trinity as stated in the Nicene creed, but another receives a different definition? Is one a "true believer" and the other not a true believer? There is a difference between the orthodoxy of the faith and the orthodoxy of the believer. A believer may have a simple understanding that Jesus is God without conforming to a certain definition of the Trinity, and yet still remain completely orthodox. Jesus is God; He has come from God. He is the Messiah manifested in the flesh. That is all that is required by 1 John 4:2.

Because of religion, church doctrines are the measure by which many people and denominations judge the authenticity of another's salvation. If you have not been fully immersed at your baptism then you are not truly saved. If you have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit then you are not completely saved. If you do not practice various rituals, follow certain doctrines, or observe various days or seasons then you are not a true believer. And if you are not a true believer then your salvation must not be true either. Remember that for centuries religion has kept believers in bondage to certain belief systems in order to maintain control. religion tells man, "You must conform to what we tell you is true in order to establish and maintain your salvation, and to assure that you receive full salvation in the coming kingdom age." The Bible places no such demands on believers. All that is needed to receive, maintain, and be assured of your eternal standing before God is in the Bible.

Is the revelation of the Trinity in the Bible? Yes. It absolutely is. The Bible is abundantly clear that God is Triune in nature. Is faith in the Triune nature of God essential to personal salvation? No. It absolutely is not. Understanding and knowing the complete revelation of the Scriptures is part of what is essential to the orthodoxy of the faith of Christianity, to maintain its purity and its authority on the earth.

[hupo]

Can't help but love you Hupo when you say things like this...

"Are you saying that studying the Bible is not the most important way of having a relationship with God? If so, where does Bible study stand in the scheme of things."

If the Author of the Book is standing right beside you waiting to hear from you, waiting to enfold you in His loving arms, waiting to tell you how much He loves you, then talking to Him and listening has the obvious edge on reading the Word. Having said that, He will respond to you in all manner of ways: through the Word itself, through others in the body of Christ, through circumstances, through direct communication (the still, small voice), even through secular songs or books or people, if He can't get your attention any other way, LOL.

Man, I wish I could tell you how desperate He is to know you and have you know Him.

You sound like you've had one of those experiences most people only dream about. I envy you!

I believe God communicates with us in more ways than we'll ever know.

Just getting up in the morning, hearing the birds while the sun rises in the east, that should be enough to get anyone going.

In fact I wonder how I sometimes actually curse those birds for "making such a noise"

You know how rediculess it sounds saying God is desperate? But I know what you mean

The first time God spoke to me directly from the scriptures, I just burst into tears. This was a passage I knew in my mind and had read time and time again. But this particular moment, I really needed Him and He came through for me, with a comfort to my soul that I will never forget. It answered all my questions and settled all my anxieties. He loved me! He knew my heart! He cared about the things that troubled me! He had a plan to deliver me! Really it beats Bible study done by routine. It beats it because my loving Father in Heaven heard my heart's cry and answered me in His love and in His power.

Whew! That is something no amount of study can get to. Bible study is limited isn't it

I know as much as I CAN know, that if I had no arms or legs and were marooned on a desert island somewhere in deafness and disability, God would STILL find a way to communicate with me, and to meet my needs. His love knows no limits.

Perhaps I will suggest this. Try not to go into Bible study as though God is pleased with a religious routine. Go instead like a son to Father, expectantly, knowing He cares for you to His own hurt, and that He will respond to you in the present tense. This makes it exciting stuff Hupo, man I am excited just thinking how cool it will be when you get that going with Him.

Attitude........... not logic......... makes so much sense.........

I have been trying to study God's Word since I turned to Him some 10 years ago. Something has been getting in the way untill a couple of weeks ago.

God even told me once to "stop reading the Bible" which I took as satan's game, naturally I "force read" the Bible.

Nothing was going right and only 2 months later I finaly heard the end of God's sentance "don't read the Bible.....with your mind".

I have been bored stiff reading the Bible and feeling terrible over it.

I prayed about it knowing that it was no secret to God.

My feeling is He has answered my prayer. I would say that for me, to be interested and excited with scripture, is a miracle.

Prayer answered

Thank You Father, Thank You Yeshua and thank You Holy Spirit for taking me under your wings

Praise the Lord.

Love always, EphesiansGal xxxxx

Yes, praise the Lord

and bless you EphesiansGal

In HIM Always

[Mutzrein]

To bring the meaning of the

[hupo]

Consider yourself well and truly hugged in the Spirit Hupo. And if ever you need a person to tell you how terrible rules are to the spirit that yearns for spontaneity, I'm your man...errr...woman LOL!!

Where the Spirit is, there is liberty.

Praise God.

Love,

EphesiansGal xxxxx

I noticed something about rules in the Bible.

In Exodus 20 God gave us only 10 things we SHOULDN'T do....

Can you imagine getting only 10 things we CAN do?

Not much freedom there, is there?

God is good

[Mutzrein]

My response in RED. Hope that is OK

If Jesus is not God but just a man, how could he make this God like promise.....

But I have never said that Jesus is just a man. He is the son of God.

God is usually Caped i.e. Jesus, Eternal Son of God

Beloved.....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Ephesians 3:20-21)

Love, Your Brother Joe

Caped? You mean like superman is 'Caped'? Sorry - just my sense of mirth.

You meant 'capped' obviously - and I agree. I usually capitalize references to Jesus and God and slipped up there. I'm human