Should I be obeying the OT Laws?

[Floatingaxe]

I would agree with what you are saying hope you can understand the things I had to say.

blessings

OC

Shalom OC,

I have read over all your responses and yes, I do agree with what you've said. It is exactly what I've been saying, but you said it much more gentle and understandable than I did. In my zeal and excitement about G-d's blessings in this area and what it has done for my walk as a Christian, I tend to get, well, a little overzealous in my explanations.

Anyway, thank you for your comments, they are right on! We cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater!

I do wish to comment on a couple of things though and maybe to clarify where you're coming from:

OC said

But if we walk in the flesh we go back up "UNDER" the curse of the LAW in which no flesh will be justified under the law because there is no law that can make one righteous and your sin stands condemning you only the Spirit sets us free from the curse of the law as we walk in the Spirit and bear the fruit of God unto everlasting life.

To walk in and fulfill the lust of the flesh is to go back up UNDER the LAW. But most do not understand this and do not see that the law was our school master until Christ came and set us free.

This is where we run intro trouble. When someone, like myself, posts about the joys of observing Sabbath, Feasts, dietary laws etc., then we have people who feel they can judge the Believer's heart and say that they are walking in the flesh by doing these things, THUS that Believer is putting themselves back UNDER the Law.

This is simply not true in all cases and the assumption should not be made that everyone who loves the Law is UNDER the Law. There are those who follow the Law according to the Spirit of the Law and not the letter. That is, they walk according to the Holy Spirit in these things and not according to the flesh.

This is what was most frustrating to hear, that people who do not know a thing about me, except that I love G-d's Word and His Law, felt they had the right (and ability) to read my mind and see into my heart motives and accuse me of doing it according to the flesh. THIS is sin for it is false judgment and the kind of judgment the Word says we should not do - another's heart motives.

Now, there ARE those groups that preach that we must all follow the Law and this is the only way to please G-d, but this is not true of all Believers and it should not be assumed and accused.

Does that make sense?

Well, the title of the thread is "SHOULD I be obeying the OT Laws". Should we? NO! CAN we? Yes! One person deciding that for whatever reasons and for whatever time, they have decided it would be a good thing to do EVEN THOUGH NOT NECESSARY, is not a problem. One person deciding that they are going to tell everyone else that they should do the same, is not OK.

We are not justified, sanctified, or made righteous by the OT Covenantal laws. We can and should learn much by understanding them and their purpose. We can individually choose to follow those we wish to. But we must follow the New Covenant. We should also understand the underlying principles that lead us into righteous actions and draw us closer to a committed covenanted relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Amen! We are free people! We can choose to follow after some laws as a sacrifice to God, but Jesus has freed us from the obligation. On top of that, being Gentile, I would never have to follow after any such ordinances anyway, thank the Lord.

Jesus does not ever encumber us, ever!

[Openly Curious]

'Vickilynn

Shalom OC,

I have read over all your responses and yes, I do agree with what you've said. It is exactly what I've been saying, but you said it much more gentle and understandable than I did. In my zeal and excitement about G-d's blessings in this area and what it has done for my walk as a Christian, I tend to get, well, a little overzealous in my explanations.

Anyway, thank you for your comments, they are right on! We cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Hello Vickilyn,

I also have a great zeal and I like to study in the Jewish traditions in which they had back then and I find that it enriches my faith as a believer for doing so as things become more alive knowing more about our Jewish roots like studying the Jewish passover which is Hadassah and how the Jews are still looking for Elijah to come and they will set a place at the table for him during the passover meal but studying our Jewish roots and heritage is so enriching to one's faith so I know what you mean.

And no we need to keep the baby and get rid of the dirty bathwater.

I do wish to comment on a couple of things though and maybe to clarify where you're coming from:

OC said

But if we walk in the flesh we go back up "UNDER" the curse of the LAW in which no flesh will be justified under the law because there is no law that can make one righteous and your sin stands condemning you only the Spirit sets us free from the curse of the law as we walk in the Spirit and bear the fruit of God unto everlasting life.

To walk in and fulfill the lust of the flesh is to go back up UNDER the LAW. But most do not understand this and do not see that the law was our school master until Christ came and set us free.

This is where we run intro trouble. When someone, like myself, posts about the joys of observing Sabbath, Feasts, dietary laws etc., then we have people who feel they can judge the Believer's heart and say that they are walking in the flesh by doing these things, THUS that Believer is putting themselves back UNDER the Law.

There are many who "observe" not keep the old testament sabbath's and such. For example I used the passover meal just a moment ago. There are churches that hold a Jewish passover according to their traditions as there is nothing wrong with that as they use it to teach us about Christ and teach the children as it is all center around teaching them as it is filled with anticipation as you move through it. There is simply nothing wrong with that it is enriching to one's faith and makes one appreciate Christ that much more. Their are those who observe "Sukkot" which they stay in booths for a certain number of days in order to remember their journey to the promise land as they had to stay in booths. So observance and rembering is not a bad thing but a good thing as the Lord's supper is a good example of one remembering back to what the Lord has done for us.

Going back up under the Law is simply returning to your old lifestyle and fulfilling the sins or lusts of the flesh and not walking according to the new man in Christ Jesus as you go back into the bondage of your sin and you will be judged by your freewill in deciding which nature you want to walk in our fleshly sin nature or the divine imparted nature of God where there is no law or curse. It is not good that any of us judge another's salvation as we as believers belong to Christ and it is to Him we will stand or fall. Also there is a big misconception about what it means to go back up under the curse of the law and I hope I have help to clarify my position.

This is simply not true in all cases and the assumption should not be made that everyone who loves the Law is UNDER the Law. There are those who follow the Law according to the Spirit of the Law and not the letter. That is, they walk according to the Holy Spirit in these things and not according to the flesh.

I agree but I think mostly it is more of how one states what they are trying to say where others don't pick up on it and get bent out of shape to early on in the conversation whereas it takes patience from us in this matter. But assumption should not be made up front as one should ask if they do not know one's postiion and reason for saying what they do I agree.

Now as far as the other part of what you are saying I understand that there are those who say they follow the Law according to the Spirit of the Law and not the letter and are saying that they walk according to the Holy Spirit in these things and not according to the flesh. Now I will be frank and honest here as I have a big problem with these kinds of believers as I think they are in big time error and I will tell you why I do.

First off I see error in their thinking process toward the Law in general as one cannot "Follow" the Law according to the Spirit of the Law it is not possible for either you obey a law or you don't. So in essence what these people are saying is whatever the Spirit speaks to me is Law and the written word of God no longer applies seeing they have the Spirit and the Spirit overides the written word of God. These people on the boards will not come out and tell you there position on this but it is what they are saying non the less.

The Holy Spirit will never lead us away from His written word but will lead us into all truth found in the word and even brings the word back to our rememberance and comforts us. If the Holy Spirit speaks to you and it leads you away from the word or says something contrary to the word then it is not the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Also they have a misconception according to what the "Spirit of the Law" is for the spirit of the law is only referring to the original intent of why a law was written for and it does not mean the Holy Spirit trumps the word as this misconception is going around and it is error. As it gives one the freedom to do as they want in Christ and think it is alright but it is the opposite.

This is what was most frustrating to hear, that people who do not know a thing about me, except that I love G-d's Word and His Law, felt they had the right (and ability) to read my mind and see into my heart motives and accuse me of doing it according to the flesh. THIS is sin for it is false judgment and the kind of judgment the Word says we should not do - another's heart motives.

I agree and I know that we all fall short in this area of our Christian walks and it is flustrating to have to go through the bashing of others but we all will at one time or another so stay strong my sister.

Now, there ARE those groups that preach that we must all follow the Law and this is the only way to please G-d, but this is not true of all Believers and it should not be assumed and accused.

I agree here with you also as the word thus teaches us in Romans 14 as some in this thread have already brought up the thing is that our bodies have been purchased and washed clean in the blood and there is now no food or keeping holydays and such that can make us any cleaner or set apart than the blood already has done done.

But some thing that abstaining from certain meats makes them clean in body and so they stay away from certain meats even though they are a born again Christian now. We must be careful not to judge these individuals or cause them to stumble the reason being is because in their minds if they eat something they think is still a sin then in their minds their relationship with God will be broken which is not true but in their minds it is true and their fellowship with God is thus broken and has to be reconciled once again. It is important for any of us not to do this to another believer because it is very possible that person may never get the relationship with God back they once had. So I agree with you on this as well.

Does that make sense?

perfectly

OC

[OopsMartin]

I agree here with you also as the word thus teaches us in Romans 14 as some in this thread have already brought up the thing is that our bodies have been purchased and washed clean in the blood and there is now no food or keeping holydays and such that can make us any cleaner or set apart than the blood already has done done.

But some thing that abstaining from certain meats makes them clean in body and so they stay away from certain meats even though they are a born again Christian now. We must be careful not to judge these individuals or cause them to stumble the reason being is because in their minds if they eat something they think is still a sin then in their minds their relationship with God will be broken which is not true but in their minds it is true and their fellowship with God is thus broken and has to be reconciled once again. It is important for any of us not to do this to another believer because it is very possible that person may never get the relationship with God back they once had. So I agree with you on this as well.

OC

Everything in this post was well said. I concur.

[Vickilynn]

Well, the title of the thread is "SHOULD I be obeying the OT Laws".

Shalom Martin,

Well, then your argument would be with the person who started this thread and titled it that.

Also, the person who started it was asking if *I* should, they did not say "should everyone."?

So, you're taking offense at the simple question a brother was asking. He did not say YOU should, yet you got all bent out of shape about it. Goodness.

Should we? NO! CAN we? Yes!

Fortunately, that's not YOUR call to make, it's G-d's. And if He leads someone to do it, then they SHOULD to be in obedience to Him. You have not right to tell them otherwise. Fortunately, we each answer to G-d and not you or any of you. If the L-rd leads us to do something we'd BETTER do it as we answer to Him for it.

Romans 14

3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

One person deciding that for whatever reasons and for whatever time, they have decided it would be a good thing to do EVEN THOUGH NOT NECESSARY, is not a problem.

But YOU are not to say what is or isn't necessary for that person. Only G-d can.

One person deciding that they are going to tell everyone else that they should do the same, is not OK.

But that's exactly what you and others here have done. You argue that it's WRONG to observe and you want everyone to do it your way, not listen to G-d. That's not OK.

We are not justified, sanctified, or made righteous by the OT Covenantal laws.

Duh. How many times are we going to go over that? That has never been in debate.

Show me ONE place, just ONE place where someone has said otherwise please.

[OopsMartin]

Well, the title of the thread is "SHOULD I be obeying the OT Laws".

Shalom Martin,

Well, then your argument would be with the person who started this thread and titled it that.

And originally that is whom I addressed when I entered in on this conversation. That has been the question I have been addressing.

[Vickilynn]

And originally that is whom I addressed when I entered in on this conversation. That has been the question I have been addressing.

Shalom Martin,

I edited my post and added quite a bit, you may want to re-read it.

[Vickilynn]

Amen! We are free people! We can choose to follow after some laws as a sacrifice to God, but Jesus has freed us from the obligation. On top of that, being Gentile, I would never have to follow after any such ordinances anyway, thank the Lord.

Jesus does not ever encumber us, ever!

Shalom FA,

So, you tithing is not following the Law?

You can't have it both ways.

You simply choose the ones you want to follow and condemn the others.

And there are not 2 ways to live, one for Jews, one for Gentiles. We are all equal in the eyes of the L-rd.

[OopsMartin]

You argue that it's WRONG to observe and you want everyone to do it your way, not listen to G-d. That's not OK.

Observing for worshipful benefit is different than obeying. I have no problem with that, and appreciate the care with which OC has explained it. Obedience, however, is closely related to the result of righteousness.

Why would God who has fulfilled the OT Covenental Laws in Christ tell anyone to go back and give obedience to them as if Christ's sacrifice were not sufficient. I have some trouble with this concept.

And we are free to choose to observe any OT Covenental Laws for our personal, emotional and spiritual enjoyment. I repeat, I've no problem with that.

[firehill]

Well, the title of the thread is "SHOULD I be obeying the OT Laws". Should we? NO! CAN we? Yes! One person deciding that for whatever reasons and for whatever time, they have decided it would be a good thing to do EVEN THOUGH NOT NECESSARY, is not a problem. One person deciding that they are going to tell everyone else that they should do the same, is not OK.

We are not justified, sanctified, or made righteous by the OT Covenantal laws. We can and should learn much by understanding them and their purpose. We can individually choose to follow those we wish to. But we must follow the New Covenant. We should also understand the underlying principles that lead us into righteous actions and draw us closer to a committed covenanted relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Well said, clear, nice and simple.

Observing for worshipful benefit is different than obeying. I have no problem with that, and appreciate the care with which OC has explained it. Obedience, however, is closely related to the result of righteousness.

Why would God who has fulfilled the OT Covenental Laws in Christ tell anyone to go back and give obedience to them as if Christ's sacrifice were not sufficient. I have some trouble with this concept.

And we are free to choose to observe any OT Covenental Laws for our personal, emotional and spiritual enjoyment. I repeat, I've no problem with that.

Amen.

[Vickilynn]

Hello Vickilyn,

I also have a great zeal and I like to study in the Jewish traditions in which they had back then and I find that it enriches my faith as a believer for doing so as things become more alive knowing more about our Jewish roots like studying the Jewish passover which is Hadassah and how the Jews are still looking for Elijah to come and they will set a place at the table for him during the passover meal but studying our Jewish roots and heritage is so enriching to one's faith so I know what you mean. And no we need to keep the baby and get rid of the dirty bathwater.

Shalom OC,

Amen and amen.

I do wish to comment on a couple of things though and maybe to clarify where you're coming from:

There are many who "observe" not keep the old testament sabbath's and such. For example I used the passover meal just a moment ago. There are churches that hold a Jewish passover according to their traditions as there is nothing wrong with that as they use it to teach us about Christ and teach the children as it is all center around teaching them as it is filled with anticipation as you move through it. There is simply nothing wrong with that it is enriching to one's faith and makes one appreciate Christ that much more. Their are those who observe "Sukkot" which they stay in booths for a certain number of days in order to remember their journey to the promise land as they had to stay in booths. So observance and rembering is not a bad thing but a good thing as the Lord's supper is a good example of one remembering back to what the Lord has done for us.

Amen again. Exactly!

Going back up under the Law is simply returning to your old lifestyle and fulfilling the sins or lusts of the flesh and not walking according to the new man in Christ Jesus as you go back into the bondage of your sin and you will be judged by your freewill in deciding which nature you want to walk in our fleshly sin nature or the divine imparted nature of God where there is no law or curse. It is not good that any of us judge another's salvation as we as believers belong to Christ and it is to Him we will stand or fall. Also there is a big misconception about what it means to go back up under the curse of the law and I hope I have help to clarify my position.

Exactly and yes. Thank you.

Now as far as the other part of what you are saying I understand that there are those who say they follow the Law according to the Spirit of the Law and not the letter and are saying that they walk according to the Holy Spirit in these things and not according to the flesh. Now I will be frank and honest here as I have a big problem with these kinds of believers as I think they are in big time error and I will tell you why I do.

First off I see error in their thinking process toward the Law in general as one cannot "Follow" the Law according to the Spirit of the Law it is not possible for either you obey a law or you don't. So in essence what these people are saying is whatever the Spirit speaks to me is Law and the written word of God no longer applies seeing they have the Spirit and the Spirit overides the written word of God. These people on the boards will not come out and tell you there position on this but it is what they are saying non the less.

I'm sorry OC, but I totally disagree with you here.

I think this is simply semantics. You said they can "observe" but not "follow" the Law by the leading of the Holy Spirit?I have to say that this is not what I have found in my study and in my experience. Observe is another word (expression) for follow. That does not change the heart motive one bit.

Yes, it IS possible to follow the Spirit of the Law and I'll tell you why I believe that. Because the Law was put in place to show us our need for a Savior. To point out sin, to bring us to the end of ourselves and show us a holy G-d. And Jesus is the embodiment of the Law, as Messiah, as Sacrifice as the reason for the Feasts, as the Light of Sabbath, as everything. So, the Spirit of the Law (Capital S) is the Holy Spirit who leads us to know more about Jesus through fulfilled prophecy and the intricacies of G-d's plan of the Law and how He would send Messiah.

I have NEVER met someone who said they were following the Spirit of the Law disregard the written Word, never. This is just not something that is common in my experience. Nowhere have I seen where someone says "The Holy Spirit leads me" and that overrides the Word of G-d. I'm sorry, but it's just not the norm. I'm sure there are people out there that do that stuff, but there are plenty of people out there that distort the Scriptures, we can't condemn everyone because some get it wrong.

And that's not what I've EVER said or believe either. Yet, I was accused without cause.

I agree and I know that we all fall short in this area of our Christian walks and it is flustrating to have to go through the bashing of others but we all will at one time or another so stay strong my sister.

Thank you. I won't say it doesn't hurt, but to be honest, I've been a Christian for 30 years and I'm not going to stop doing what G-d has told me to just because some people on a message board are so quick to judge and condemn and point fingers when don't have a clue what they are talking about when they jump someone and accuse them falsely. It won't stop me from obeying G-d. It won't stop me from being who I am and sharing when I am led.

The concern I have is for more tender Christians who might be caused to stumble in their walk based on the cruel treatment they receive, as I have. The good "church" people gang up and accuse people of being Pharisees blah blah. And yes, it can really cause someone to stumble, I've seen it and experienced it. And this is what I see here, this "mob" jumping on people who even dare to mention they observe the Sabbath or dietary laws, without even finding out what they believe and why.

This could seriously hurt a young Christian, or one that is vulnerable. And this is why I am fighting back so hard. Not for me, but for the others who may be reading and be hurt by all this mess.

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir since you say you believe the same about grace given to other Believers if they choose to serve G-d in ways that some don't, I just want to say what's on my heart about this is all.

Thanks for letting me.