Carnal Christians

[Fewarechosen7F]

I would have to agree.  We have to daily crucify our flesh.  It is something we fight everyday.

I agree that we are all working on this issue to some degree, but what I am addressing here are those that don't appear to be even trying to 'crucify their flesh every day'. They don't seem to be busy 'working out' their salvation, but just carrying on in worldly things like anybody else.

Are you challenging all at Worthy Boards to overcome the carnal mind? AMEN TO THAT!

[Fewarechosen7F]

Well, I have to admit that I take issue with some of Paul's writings, such as women having to keep silence in the churches etc. I think a lot of Paul's writings fall under"this say I, not the Lord". Anyway, I understand there are times when it may be necessary to shun people in some way, but I believe it should be done in love and not self righteousness, in order that any such action might have the desired effect of helping that person to have a change of heart. In order to do this I believe it is necessary to at least keep a line of communication open in order to help them and bring them under the Lord's conviction. Christ never leaves nor forsakes us and I believe that He would have us show the same love to others. If Christ would have us show love to our enemies, how much more we should love those of us who have strayed in order to win them back into fellowship with God and the bretheren.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Would if Christ had shunned all of us? He certainly could have seeing we're all sinners and He is perfect.

Idol,

Yeshua Christ could not do many mighty works among his own because they did not believe him.

The Holy Spirit does not baptize our thoughts in the name of Yeshua Christ until after we repent, deliberaely shunning those who refuse to repent sin. Those who refuse to repent sin are not our brothers!

[OneAccord]

A falling tide lowers all ships, and a sinner, even a saved one, can bring even the most spiritual among us down to base levels in a short time.

I think this brings up an interesting point--should we discern whether that brother's sin will pollute the whole assembly or whether he is only harming himself? The epistles in general seemed mostly concerned with the effects the sins or false doctrine would have on the rest of church.

This whole topic seems to dovetail into the subject of 'church discipline' which is a decidedly sticky issue. We don't want a modern-day version of stoning, our intentions and methods of dealing with such should always be for that person's ultimate good, with the health and well-being of the local body in mind.

The Amish hold to the practice of shunning, and it is a very serious and weighty decision on the part of their elders to shun one of the brethren.

[Guest idolsmasher]

-Well, I have to admit that I take issue with some of Paul's writings, such as women having to keep silence in the churches etc. I think a lot of Paul's writings fall under"this say I, not the Lord".

-----------------------

-SMASH BROTHER;YOU are NOT taking "issue"with Pauls writings---YOU are taking "issue"with GOD--

-HIMSELF---The WORD states--emphatically----Webster's new collegiate dictionary-----

-emphatically--------

-1-uttered with or marked by emphasis....

-2-tending to express oneself in forceful speech or to take decisive action....

-3-attracting special attention......

-Now on to the "shunning"aspect of Pauls instructions to the Church at Corinth....

-1st.corin.5.vss.1.thru.13------

-Paul iis giving instructions on how to deal with a"Brother" that is in a sexual sin--immorality----

-vs.5----

-To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit

-may be saved in the day of the LORD-JESUS.....

-The overall concern for Paul was for this "brothers" spirit to be saved....

-The"shunning" might have "seemed" harsh BUT it was not,he was concerned where this

-Brother was going to spend eternity,heaven or hell....The end of that "sin"was going to

-bring death,so which is more cruel,to play patty-cake-paty-cake &-tell the man you were

-praying for him & knew his"problem"would eventually work out for the good??

-Turning him over to satan certainly"seems"kinda harsh but not really,if you consider

-the end results of sin...sin=death---repentence=life......

-Chpts. 5 & 6 are addressing this"sin" & it must be stopped &/or dealt with immediately

-this mans sin was in the public eye--everyone knew what was going on & it was bringing

-reproach to the name of JESUS...This was a new & very young "church"everyone in the town

-was watching & this immorality had to be dealt with immediately & in a decisive manner...

-AS to Paul speaking by permission of GOD & not a commandment only occured twice...

-Paul is talking about ministers of the word & being married or unmarried....

- He is quite explicit that IF a man wanted to serve GOD & HIM only then he could stay

-unmarried so he could study the scriptures,pray & seek GOD....IF he was married then that was

-o.k.too.those instructions are in chpt.7.vss.1.thru.40--& covers men staying virgins,the marriage

-the death of a husband or wife.....

-2nd.Peter.1.vs.20-21---------

-Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

-For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man;but holy men of GOD

-spake as they were moved by the HOLY-GHOST

-2nd.Timothy.3.vss.16-17--------

-All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD,and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,

-for correction,for instruction in righteousness;That the man of GOD may be perfect,

-throughly furnished unto all good works.....

-Now Smash bro. it is quite plain that Paul wrote out of his own perspective as a man

-that was totally dedicated to serving GOD & HIM only.He wanted NO distractions from

-that service to GOD in any way whatsoever & that is why he was not married & IF GOD

-could give this gift of celibacy to other men that was the BEST way to be totally dedicated

-to serving GOD....But If they were married then that Gift was to be treated with the same

-kind of love & care that JESUS had for the church--HIS bride....

-Now Smash my Brother how in the big blue eyed wide world could you have any dispute

-or lack of trust or take "issue"with a man that was caught up to the third heaven,was in GOD'S

-very presence & heard unspeakable words that were"unlawful for a man to utter????

-2nd.corin.12.vss.1.thru.10--------

-SO either the BIBLE is GOD'S word as the scriptures declare or it's man's words,& is pure folly

-to try to follow.......IF that is your position about "any"writer of the BIBLE,you might just as well

-throw it out the window & sit down & make up your own Book of rules,laws,traditions,regulations,

-& pleasingly,palatable,poor,pious,purely plausible platitudes to believe in & promote.......

-GOD-BLESS-ALL-TRUTH-SEEKERS------------------Gary--

I'm a bad bad boy, BAD boy! Shun, SHUN!!!! But then you won't get any more of those nice cards eh!

[JoeElliott]

I think that many Christians don't realise when they are being carnal. I'm not the kind of Christian that believes in shunning.

Dear Idol,

Whether or not you believe in "shunning" is irrelevant. It is a Biblical command from the Word......it comes "after" the truth is spoken to that person about what they are doing. So it is better to obey the written words of God. It might just help someone come in out of the rain.

Zech 8:16 These are the things you shall do: Speak each man the truth to his neighbor; Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;

Eph. 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

In His Love,

Suzanne

Right. Sometimes shunning a sinful brother will make them want to repent and come back to the Lord. How will a Christian that is engrossed in sin know that it is a serious matter if we continue to fellowship with them like everything is just fine?

[Guest idolsmasher]

I think this brings up an interesting point--should we discern whether that brother's sin will pollute the whole assembly or whether he is only harming himself?

I think you are right OA, a one size fits all approach doesn't really cut it, except perhaps in the most grevious of offences and even then there has to be some hope. If there is no hope, why repent! Or if there is no love and only law, why go back!

[His son]

Matt 18:15-17

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(KJV)

These are pretty precise instructions about how we are to deal with sin in the body. This is exactly the way we should handle it. And notice especially that the outcome is a direct result of the freewill choice of the offender to listen, consider, and respond.

[Fewarechosen7F]

The Holy Spirit smote Ananias and Sapphira to death for teling a lie to the Church.

[Guest idolsmasher]

let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Don't heathens and tax collectors get invited to church? If a heathen came into your church what would you do, through him out?

The Holy Spirit smote Ananias and Sapphira to death for teling a lie to the Church.

Can you explain why you said this?

[Guest Calamity]

Idolsmasher, I don't agree with everything you've said, but mostly I do agree with these parts here. (sorry for chopping up your posts like this...)

-------------------

idolsmasher: "I fail to see how these verses would justify shunning. While I do realise that if a person is being a real reproach, very bad sample, or being a real problem, out of wisdom it might be wise to limit contact, at the same time I think we should still keep our hearts open towards them and be willing to do what we can for them. Total shunning is extrememly legalistic and shows a lack of love and compassion, the same things that Christ rebuked the Jewish leaders for."

"Anyway, I understand there are times when it may be necessary to shun people in some way, but I believe it should be done in love and not self righteousness, in order that any such action might have the desired effect of helping that person to have a change of heart."

"If there is no hope, why repent! Or if there is no love and only law, why go back!"

-----------------------------------------------------

I, too, think the shunning practice can be carried too far, and done in a spirit of self-righteousness by the shunners. This happens more often than some may realize. Often, it happens for reasons that should not be - maybe jealousy, or self-righteousness on the part of others, and not when the person is really in sin, but maybe just doesn't fit in right, or other reasons or excuses. Some are too quick to follow the "shun" practice, and can really get self-righteous about it. Others, on the other hand, are too reluctant to do it at all. If it is done, it should be based on biblical teachings, and not on personal feelings.

------------------------------

1 Corinthians 5

5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

-------------------------------

Also, many times, this part in 2 Corinthians is overlooked, or not followed through with. Even if someone comes back to the church, many will treat them differently and not receive them back in love, as they should, after they've repented.

-----------------------------

2 Corinthians 2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was inflicted] of many.

2 Corinthians 2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward him.

----------------------------------------------------------

I've been on the receiving end of the "shunning", and it was because we left a church that wasn't teaching correctly. That "shunning" is still happening over a year later, by family members, and it is in an attitude of self-righteousness, and not because of biblical reasons.

However, I do not take 'issue' with anything written in the Bible at all. It's all God's Word, whether Paul wrote it, or John, or Peter, or whoever else.