Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

[Emily~Anne]

Probably some certain posters here have already clicked onto that link and wrote their own note to Bush asking him to protect women's rights to abortions. That is what creeps me out about that link, and at a CHRISTIAN board too! *shudder* It would be like having a table set up at our church for people who are pro abortion to be able to support abortions. I understand that George took action last night and within 24 hours those ads should be gone?

[nebula]

Hamburger - Forrest -

Care you not for the soul of the child that was slain in the womb?

I care more about the children that our here among us right now.

I will pose this question to you as well. If Death Certs for abortions are a great idea, then what is wrong with this?:

So, if you guys are for that, then I say we should certainly not stop at creating death certificates for abortions. We should also require a death certificate for any miscarriage. In fact, even if a miscarriage occurs at only a few weeks after conception, the woman should be required to contact the police, the coroner should come out, investigate the death, and just like when someone dies in the home, the state should require that an autopsy be performed to determine cause of death and to rule out foul play as a cause of death. Most miscarriages result from natural causes, but everyone of them should be extensively investigated to make sure that their was nothing even remotely the mother could have done to prevent it from happening, and if there was, she should be held criminally responsible. For example, if the mother is found to have not been following the dietary and lifestyle recommendations of her physician, then the District Attorney should look at possibly filling manslaughter or negligent homicide charges. Either way though, there should be a permanent public record created about the incident. The whole world should have the opportunity to know about it.

Besides what Lady C said, any woman who has a miscarriage should go to the doctor. I don't know the legalities of writing a death certificate, but considering the circumstances, why can't the doctor write up one after the woman has been checked out - like she normally should?

And you still are not addressing the soul issue.

[WayneB]

Okay. I will leave the thread but like I said, the ads are in the history of the thread. I cannot remove them. Maybe after the thread has run its course, we'll delete?

[Emily~Anne]

So, if you guys are for that, then I say we should certainly not stop at creating death certificates for abortions. We should also require a death certificate for any miscarriage.

YES!

In fact, even if a miscarriage occurs at only a few weeks after conception, the woman should be required to contact the police,

Isn't this the job of the doctor's? Women who have had a miscarriage require medical treatment, often a D & C which requires anesthesia. They also get blood tests in which they could discreetly check for any drug abuse which is done by law for women giving full term birth anyway, so why not do it as routine treatment for those who have miscarriages? Nothing personal about it if it is done for all women who have miscarriages. They have to check other things in the bloodtest anyways for the mother's own health purposes.

the coroner should come out, investigate the death, and just like when someone dies in the home, the state should require that an autopsy be performed to determine cause of death and to rule out foul play as a cause of death.

[

Sure if the doctor concluded there were suspicions, such as obvious blunt trauma to the uterus, drugs in the mother's systems, etc. Aren't autopsies routine in ALL deathsof already born humans? What's the harm in doing them for unborn humans as well then?

Most miscarriages result from natural causes, but everyone of them should be extensively investigated to make sure that their was nothing even remotely the mother could have done to prevent it from happening, children

This isn't even done for deaths of life already born, unless there are suspicions.

and if there was, she should be held criminally responsible. For example, if the mother is found to have not been following the dietary and lifestyle recommendations of her physician, then the District Attorney should look at possibly filling manslaughter or negligent homicide charges.

Well I sure hope the vitamins I am giving my 3 yr old picky eater are the absolute best ones I could give him, or apparently the District attorney will file negligenct homicide if one of my children should die from an unrelated cause?

Either way though, there should be a permanent public record created about the incident. The whole world should have the opportunity to know about it.

Lady C has addressed this.

What you are proposing is that women who have had miscarriages be treated like criminals no matter what and be treated much harsher. What the rest of most of us are proposing is that unborn life be treated as equal to already born life and be entitled to the same rights. The rights you suggest are not equal to that of already born children.

Abortion is always intentional, miscarriages are not.

[forrestkc]

forrest, again your analagies are absurd. not every death of an adult is investigated by the police or has an autopsy. in fact, ONLY the ones in which a cause of death is suspicious.

by the same token, any miscarriage that raises suspicion of foul play SHOULD be investigated, and if it's found that the mother intentionally did something to cause the death (i.e. certain herbs can cause spontaneous abortion) then she should suffer the consequences. furthermore, if the death is caused by.... let's say a drunk driver, or an enraged boyfriend, or whatever, then they should be prosecuted for murder.

again, it's ridiculous to think that people would go around pulling up birth/death certificates to see if someone had an abortion. it would be nearly impossible, in fact, because IN ORDER TO OBTAIN A COPY OF A DEATH CERTIFICATE in the state of tennessee, one has to know the following information:

the exact DATE of death

the LOCATION (city) where the death occurred

(how many people on a fishing expedition would know either of those two required elements?)

furthermore, the requestor has to indicate what their relationship to the deceased is, have to provide proof of identification, and has to sign a document requesting the information.

and on top of all that, the CAUSE OF DEATH is not listed on the death certificate UNLESS the next of kin requests it.

so all your theories have just gone "poof". you're the one coming off sounding like the extremist.... an ill-informed extremist at that.

edited to add:

if the parent has requested the cause of death to be listed, that information is available ONLY to CERTAIN family members or their legal representatives. so much for "branding".

I am sorry, but you are misinformed, in many states, every death that happens in the home is investigated, and an autopsy is required. In many states, if an 80 year old man dies in his sleep at home, an autopsy is performed.

Therefore, if an embryo is the same thing as a fully developed human, then every miscarriage that occurs in the home should automatically require an investigation and autopsy just like a death that occurred in the home would. In fact, the miscarriage would have to be preserved and presented for the authorities, and disposing of it without notifying the authorities could possibly be a felony (unlawfully disposing of a body).

As to your other assertions, radical right to live groups would simply routinely request death certificates for locations that performed abortion procedures on every date those locations were open. Therefore, they would automatically have the date of the death, the location of death, and the cause. As they are public records, more than likely a lawsuit would ensue to get the access to the records.

The fact is, some of you on here have no problem sharing very personal and private information about yourself. However, that is a choice of yours. You have the choice to tell others personal information about yourself. Others may choose to be more private and you do not have the right to know personal information about it. That is their right. We have a reasonable right of privacy in this country. If someone has an abortion, they are having a legal procedure done, thus it is none of your business. If someone has a miscarriage, it is none of your business. These are private matters between the woman, her spouse, and her physician. It is no business of yours, mine, or any politician.

The fact is, this is nothing but a political football. Another attempt by extremists to enforce their authoritarian views upon others. The fact is, a good number of those in the radical pro-life movement could give a rat

[Guest LadyC]

i'm still waiting with baited breath...

since a death certificate for aborted fetuses would NOT indicate that the mother had an abortion...

since the mother's privacy would not be broken....

since it would be impossible for someone on a fishing expedition to find out if a person had an an abortion...

since no woman would be "branded" with a scarlet letter, discriminated against in any way, or anything of that nature....

since all objections previously raised have been eliminated, what objections remain?

the only objection i can see remaining would be an objection based on one's support of abortion.

[forrestkc]

i'm still waiting with baited breath...

since a death certificate for aborted fetuses would NOT indicate that the mother had an abortion...

since the mother's privacy would not be broken....

since it would be impossible for someone on a fishing expedition to find out if a person had an an abortion...

since no woman would be "branded" with a scarlet letter, discriminated against in any way, or anything of that nature....

since all objections previously raised have been eliminated, what objections remain?

the only objection i can see remaining would be an objection based on one's support of abortion.

I answered it above.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

again, it's ridiculous to think that people would go around pulling up birth/death certificates to see if someone had an abortion. it would be nearly impossible, in fact, because IN ORDER TO OBTAIN A COPY OF A DEATH CERTIFICATE in the state of tennessee, one has to know the following information:

the exact DATE of death

the LOCATION (city) where the death occurred

(how many people on a fishing expedition would know either of those two required elements?)

furthermore, the requestor has to indicate what their relationship to the deceased is, have to provide proof of identification, and has to sign a document requesting the information.

and on top of all that, the CAUSE OF DEATH is not listed on the death certificate UNLESS the next of kin requests it.

so all your theories have just gone "poof". you're the one coming off sounding like the extremist.... an ill-informed extremist at that.

edited to add:

if the parent has requested the cause of death to be listed, that information is available ONLY to CERTAIN family members or their legal representatives. so much for "branding".

Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions.

Rep. Stacey Campfield, a Republican, said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed. He predicted it would pass in the Republican-controlled Senate but would have a hard time making it through the Democratic House.

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/14/D8N9LFT00.html

If it is so hard to access the information in these death certificates, why does the OP state they "likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions"? Why did Stacey Campfield say the bill would "provide a way to track how many abortions are performed"? Why was he quoted to say "we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions." ?

It seems obvious to me the intent of this bill is to make the records public knowledge, which at this point in time would violate the woman's right to medical privacy seeing as at this time abortion is legal in America and therefore does not need to be made public record, opposed to say manslaughter, which does need to be made public record, because it is a illegal action in America. Even if this proposed bill would be passed, it would be ruled unconstitutional within weeks once it was actually tested, at this point in our country. If what LadyC said was true, and abortions would remain highly private information that was only availiable to close family members unless otherwise offered, yet would at the same time receive death certificates that would also remain private information unless otherwise given up, then I wouldn't have a problem with the legislation. It appears that is not the intent of the bill however, because you can't "track how many abortions are performed" if you can't access cause of death, or gain access to the death certificate records.

To A.K.

And they violated a child's right to life. I don't see you up in arms about that. Why? Because you don't hold a Christian point of view - you separate your faith from the rest of your life.

Please don't accuse me for things I haven't stated. My standpoint througout this thread has been consistantly based upon the legislation of the proposition and the privacy violations implied with it. Me being pro-life or pro-choice has nothing to do with it.

[kat8585]

Saints,

It has been suggested that we remove this thread because of the pro choice google ad. At first, I thought it unneccessary but I am now convinced otherwise. Even though we have turned the ad off, it remains on the previous pages of history in this thread.

Do y'all mind if we delete the entire thread and just start over?

I'll give it a few hours for you guys to provide your thoughts.

Thnaks,

wayne

All of the ads are on here randomly throughout this whole board. I've seen many of them in many places on here. George seemed to think they could be removed. I'd think so. You shouldn't have to have ads on your board that you don't want.

[Guest LadyC]

forrest, you love to misconstrue things. you say i'm informed? think again.

we aren't talking about "many states", we're talking about ONE state, the state of tennessee. i certainly have found no law requiring the state of tennessee to perform autopsies on individuals whose death did not appear suspicious or mysterious, and i've been looking. i found only that autopsies are required on any "sids" deaths, and on the deaths of all inmates, but not for all deaths in general. i do gotta give you an E for effort in trying to derail this to make it look like you're more informed than you've been proven to be.

now, as someone else pointed out, a physical examination should be done for any miscarriage, and in most cases, IS done. no problem as far as i'm concerned with trying to determine the cause of death, but YOU apparently seem to be under the mistaken impression that it would even be possible. you don't have much knowledge in this area, do you? aside from a toxicology test on the MOTHER to determine if she ingested something which could be fatal to the fetus, and a gynocological exam (which is done automatically) to determine if she used some object to try and abort, there's USUALLY nothing to examine. by the time she sees a doctor, the fetus has usually been expelled. in cases of early miscarriage, the baby would not have even developed to the point of being able to examine.

your third paragraph was a bunch of nonsense. did you not pay attention to what i posted? it matters not, in the state of tennessee, what radical groups request. NOBODY can obtain a copy of a death certificate without knowing the exact date and location of the death. they have to provide identification and name their relationship to the deceased. those factors alone prevent radical people from finding out anything, IN THAT STATE.

continuing on with your education, even if they did know the location (i.e. CITY/COUNTY), they could not narrow it down to a specific hospital or abortion clinic. if they did manage to get a fishing expedition for a city resulting in a hundred death certificates, there would be NO WAY to determine which ones occurred by abortion, since cause of death is not listed.

again, we're talking about TENNESSEE, not some unidentified state that you're using speculatively.

let's go a little further with the educating of forrest.... again, i'll remind you that a MINOR CHILD who has an abortion would probably not have their name listed on the birth certificate copies available to the general public. THIS is speculation by me, based on the fact that in all liklihood, the laws of privacy regarding death certificates would be expanded to include that bit of information, just as cause of death, if available, is blotted out on copies obtained by anyone OTHER than specific family members (presumably next of kin) and their legal representatives.

now,

THE FACT IS your arguments are like smoke in the wind, blowing every which way but having zero substance. this isn't about shaming anyone, it's about recognition of the life and death of a human being at any stage of development. this isn't about matters of privacy, since it's already been proven that IN THE STATE CONSIDERING THIS LEGISLATION the privacy of the mother would be all but impossible to breach.

THE FACT IS your arguments serve only one agenda... to defend the laws allowing people to obtain abortions at any expense.

THE FACT IS you are making assumptions about anyone who doesn't agree with abortion being "radical extremists". you're the one doing the branding.

THE FACT IS you are making blanket assumptions and questioning our motives as to what we may or may not do to help underpriviledged children, unwed mothers, etc. i seem to recall you doing something similar in another recent thread on homeless people. maybe not, that may have been someone else.

THE FACT IS you have found nothing to support your arguments, so you're asking pointed questions trying to belittle others here based on nothing more than your own disregard for unborn children.... asking what kind of contribution we've made to society, as though the fact that you are in the process of adopting a child puts you on a pedestal from which you can look down your narrow nose at the rest of us.

why not instead of assuming that nobody but YOU contributes anything to society or cares about children, you take the time to get to know people without assuming you already know?