Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

[Guest LadyC]

Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions.

Rep. Stacey Campfield, a Republican, said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed. He predicted it would pass in the Republican-controlled Senate but would have a hard time making it through the Democratic House.

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/14/D8N9LFT00.html

If it is so hard to access the information in these death certificates, why does the OP state they "likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions"? Why did Stacey Campfield say the bill would "provide a way to track how many abortions are performed"? Why was he quoted to say "we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions." ?

hamburger, obviously you can't distinguish between what the media reports and what the bill's sponsor suggests, so let me help you out.

the MEDIA says it would likely create public records identifying the women who have had an abortion. according to the laws already in place in tennessee, the media has misconstrued the issue.

the SPONSOR says it would identify the NUMBER of abortions.

to attribute the conclusions of the media's speculation to a sponsor of a piece of written legislation (at this point it's only a bill, not legislation at all) would be about the same thing as some of you voicing your OPINION that i'm a radical extremist because i believe life begins at conception. or of me telling people that you are an athiest because you DON'T believe as i do. since neither of those two statements are accurate, then perhaps you should start paying attention to how you treat media garbage as definitive evidence of anything.

saying he wants to know the number of lives ended is not anywhere near saying he wants to identify and publically crucify the mothers. his interest is not in the mothers. it's in the unborn children.

i have to add this.... regarding what you said to AK, asking him not to make accusations about you.

he was right. your VIEW ON THIS is anti-christian. it does not line up with God's Holy Word.

wait, was it you or someone else (in another thread) that said they don't necessarily believe that the Bible is God's word? i'm not accusing, i'm asking. sometimes i get people confused.

[Emily~Anne]

Forrest, I see in your profile a picture of you embracing your son Tucker, and you seem very proud of your child and I sense alot of love in that picture. That child you love so much started from nothing but a 'clump of cells'.

p.s. not to distract from the point I am making, but me and my husband LOVE that name!

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions.

Rep. Stacey Campfield, a Republican, said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed. He predicted it would pass in the Republican-controlled Senate but would have a hard time making it through the Democratic House.

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/14/D8N9LFT00.html

If it is so hard to access the information in these death certificates, why does the OP state they "likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions"? Why did Stacey Campfield say the bill would "provide a way to track how many abortions are performed"? Why was he quoted to say "we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions." ?

hamburger, obviously you can't distinguish between what the media reports and what the bill's sponsor suggests, so let me help you out.

the MEDIA says it would likely create public records identifying the women who have had an abortion. according to the laws already in place in tennessee, the media has misconstrued the issue.

the SPONSOR says it would identify the NUMBER of abortions.

to attribute the conclusions of the media's speculation to a sponsor of a piece of written legislation (at this point it's only a bill, not legislation at all) would be about the same thing as some of you voicing your OPINION that i'm a radical extremist because i believe life begins at conception. or of me telling people that you are an athiest because you DON'T believe as i do. since neither of those two statements are accurate, then perhaps you should start paying attention to how you treat media garbage as definitive evidence of anything.

saying he wants to know the number of lives ended is not anywhere near saying he wants to identify and publically crucify the mothers. his interest is not in the mothers. it's in the unborn children.

To quote directly from the article:

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

The number of abortions reported to the state Office of Vital Records is already publicly available. The office collects records _ but not death certificates _ on abortions and the deaths of fetuses after 22 weeks gestation or weighing about 1 pound.

If the number of abortions reported is already publicly avaliable, why did Campfield say what was quoted above? I don't see how adding a Death Certificate would make it any easier or harder to determine how many lives are being ended by abortions. If that isn't the reason Campfield is proposing this, then what is?

The identities of the women who have abortions are not included in those records, but death certificates include identifying information such as Social Security numbers.

Campfield's bill, introduced Monday, would give abortion providers 10 days following an "induced termination of a pregnancy" to file a death certificate.

I don't see how I am misconstruing the situation here. It is taking away the woman's rights to privacy. If the only reason this is being done is to determine the amount of abortions performed, then there is no point in creating this bill. If there is another reason the bill is being drawn out, then what is that reason? The abortions are already being acknowledged, why does the woman's privacy have to be breached as well? I know you have stated reasons why the information CURRENTLY is private, but again, if the woman's rights to privacy will still be maintained after this bill gets passed, what is the point of the bill?

i have to add this.... regarding what you said to AK, asking him not to make accusations about you.

he was right. your VIEW ON THIS is anti-christian. it does not line up with God's Holy Word.

And what about my view is anti-christian exactly? The fact I respect people's privacy? Please, enlighten me.

wait, was it you or someone else (in another thread) that said they don't necessarily believe that the Bible is God's word? i'm not accusing, i'm asking. sometimes i get people confused.

I'm sure you aren't accusing

Long story short, no, I do not believe the Bible as it is today is the exact interpretation of God's word written down, for several reasons that I have given in the past. To say I don't believe the Bible is God's word is untrue, and is taken out of context. The original Bible may very well have been God's exact wording, but through time things have been changed a little bit, even if not by much.

[cymba22]

No one, that I have noticed, has actually said where is the actual need for it...how does supporting it go with the fruit of the spirit?

A reminder

Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The post that I have read for it do not show love or joy or any of the above...the only things I have seen from the people who suport it is the attitude of a witch hunt....where does the bible say we have to condem someone if they chose to do something we dont agree with? where does it say these non christian should act like us to make us happy?

I would appreciate sensable answers to the above...not gaurded slurs on my character like last time I gave my opinion on something so strong.

[Emily~Anne]

Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions.

Rep. Stacey Campfield, a Republican, said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed. He predicted it would pass in the Republican-controlled Senate but would have a hard time making it through the Democratic House.

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/14/D8N9LFT00.html

If it is so hard to access the information in these death certificates, why does the OP state they "likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions"? Why did Stacey Campfield say the bill would "provide a way to track how many abortions are performed"? Why was he quoted to say "we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions." ?

hamburger, obviously you can't distinguish between what the media reports and what the bill's sponsor suggests, so let me help you out.

the MEDIA says it would likely create public records identifying the women who have had an abortion. according to the laws already in place in tennessee, the media has misconstrued the issue.

the SPONSOR says it would identify the NUMBER of abortions.

to attribute the conclusions of the media's speculation to a sponsor of a piece of written legislation (at this point it's only a bill, not legislation at all) would be about the same thing as some of you voicing your OPINION that i'm a radical extremist because i believe life begins at conception. or of me telling people that you are an athiest because you DON'T believe as i do. since neither of those two statements are accurate, then perhaps you should start paying attention to how you treat media garbage as definitive evidence of anything.

saying he wants to know the number of lives ended is not anywhere near saying he wants to identify and publically crucify the mothers. his interest is not in the mothers. it's in the unborn children.

To quote directly from the article:

"All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield.

The number of abortions reported to the state Office of Vital Records is already publicly available. The office collects records _ but not death certificates _ on abortions and the deaths of fetuses after 22 weeks gestation or weighing about 1 pound.

If the number of abortions reported is already publicly avaliable, why did Campfield say what was quoted above? I don't see how adding a Death Certificate would make it any easier or harder to determine how many lives are being ended by abortions. If that isn't the reason Campfield is proposing this, then what is?

The identities of the women who have abortions are not included in those records, but death certificates include identifying information such as Social Security numbers.

Campfield's bill, introduced Monday, would give abortion providers 10 days following an "induced termination of a pregnancy" to file a death certificate.

I don't see how I am misconstruing the situation here. It is taking away the woman's rights to privacy. If the only reason this is being done is to determine the amount of abortions performed, then there is no point in creating this bill. If there is another reason the bill is being drawn out, then what is that reason? The abortions are already being acknowledged, why does the woman's privacy have to be breached as well? I know you have stated reasons why the information CURRENTLY is private, but again, if the woman's rights to privacy will still be maintained after this bill gets passed, what is the point of the bill?

i have to add this.... regarding what you said to AK, asking him not to make accusations about you.

he was right. your VIEW ON THIS is anti-christian. it does not line up with God's Holy Word.

And what about my view is anti-christian exactly? The fact I respect people's privacy? Please, enlighten me.

wait, was it you or someone else (in another thread) that said they don't necessarily believe that the Bible is God's word? i'm not accusing, i'm asking. sometimes i get people confused.

I'm sure you aren't accusing

Long story short, no, I do not believe the Bible as it is today is the exact interpretation of God's word written down, for several reasons that I have given in the past. To say I don't believe the Bible is God's word is untrue, and is taken out of context. The original Bible may very well have been God's exact wording, but through time things have been changed a little bit, even if not by much.

yeah we know what you believe, remember this?

burger, i know you won't like what i'm about to say, but i really do pity you. you don't understand what LOVE is. you think it is a loving thing to allow people to do what harms them most, just because they want to do it.

true LOVE seeks to protect others from harm.... even if that means protecting them from themselves.

now you can throw about accusations of hatemongering if you want, but it's a lie. nobody here advocates treating homosexuals badly. but we would be showing absolute disregard, contempt even, for their lives if we did not tell them that they are going to be eternally separated from God if they continue on the path they are on.

if you had a son or daughter, or brother or sister, who wanted nothing more than a quick fix from a heroin needle, something you know could easily kill them, i hope you would love them enough to warn them of the consequences. it is the exact same thing. we want people to LIVE, that's why we want everyone to know the truth.

what people do with that truth, what YOU do with that truth, is up to you. you don't have to accept it. but we have to offer it to you.

Please don't say that, I know exactly what love is, and believe me, it took me quite a bit of soul-searching to realize it.

I'll spare you the sob stories, but I know I am capable of love, and have loved.

Here is the essential difference between us, and why this subject can never get resolved:

I view the bible as a reference guide; you view the bible as an exact truth.

I view the bible as something manmade, and therefore prone to error at times; you view the bible as the written word of God.

I view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice; you view homosexuality as a damnable sin.

Coming from your standpoint, I understand completely why you cannot accept homosexuality to be taught. Because the bible is exact truth, and because the bible is the written word of God (who cannot be wrong), what is said in the Bible is always accurate. Therefore, when God says that laying with another man is an abomination, then for you, it is a horrible damning sin. That makes sense to me based upon your biblical beliefs.

Coming from my standpoint, I feel homosexuality should be taught as something that is "ok" in today's society. Because the bible is a reference guide, and because it was written by men but not necessarily the exact written truth of God, there are current humanitarian situations that should not fall directly in line with the Bible's teachings. Therefore, I think that tolerance and acceptance of the idea of homosexuality is necessary to spread understanding and love to others.

This is where things stand right now, and I really don't see them ever being resolved, because both of us are adament that our ideas are correct. One of us is right, and one of us is misguided. You feel I am misguided, while I feel you are misguided.

An unbreakable barrier, if you will.

[forrestkc]

forrest, you love to misconstrue things. you say i'm informed? think again.

we aren't talking about "many states", we're talking about ONE state, the state of tennessee. i certainly have found no law requiring the state of tennessee to perform autopsies on individuals whose death did not appear suspicious or mysterious, and i've been looking. i found only that autopsies are required on any "sids" deaths, and on the deaths of all inmates, but not for all deaths in general. i do gotta give you an E for effort in trying to derail this to make it look like you're more informed than you've been proven to be.

now, as someone else pointed out, a physical examination should be done for any miscarriage, and in most cases, IS done. no problem as far as i'm concerned with trying to determine the cause of death, but YOU apparently seem to be under the mistaken impression that it would even be possible. you don't have much knowledge in this area, do you? aside from a toxicology test on the MOTHER to determine if she ingested something which could be fatal to the fetus, and a gynocological exam (which is done automatically) to determine if she used some object to try and abort, there's USUALLY nothing to examine. by the time she sees a doctor, the fetus has usually been expelled. in cases of early miscarriage, the baby would not have even developed to the point of being able to examine.

Roughly 25% of all pregnancies at six weeks LMP end in miscarriage. Of those, many occur before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Of those, many do not normally seek medical attention.

Now if a fertilized egg is a human being, then that 25 percent of all pregnancies that end in miscarriage should be investigated as a death, and a death certificate should be issued. Let

[Emily~Anne]

Forrest, your wisdom is from the world. Read the 2nd, 3rd and 4th verse in my siggy.

[forrestkc]

Forrest, your wisdom is from the world. Read the 2nd, 3rd and 4th verse in my siggy.

If reason and concience were useless, God would have never given them to us.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

yeah we know what you believe, remember this?

Yes I do, I just restated it for you. Emphasis on me saying the exact word of God, exact is the important part.

Once again, my religious beliefs are suddenly on trial when I disagree.

[Marnie]

No one, that I have noticed, has actually said where is the actual need for it...how does supporting it go with the fruit of the spirit?

A reminder

Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The post that I have read for it do not show love or joy or any of the above...the only things I have seen from the people who suport it is the attitude of a witch hunt....where does the bible say we have to condem someone if they chose to do something we dont agree with? where does it say these non christian should act like us to make us happy?

I would appreciate sensable answers to the above...not gaurded slurs on my character like last time I gave my opinion on something so strong.

I think for those who see abortion as murder, which I do, the treatment of one who has committed a murder is pretty clear from a church discipline perspective. 1 Corinthians 5:1--13 comes to mind. Particularly this verse,

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

The context is sexual sin, but the application could go as far as to one who has had an abortion. If this woman repents and asks forgiveness, then so be it, she should be restored to fellowship. But for a woman to have an abortion and think nothing of it and have an almost lackadaisical attitude about it, she needs to be confronted by her pastor, in love, for the sake of the church. If she remains unrepentant, then she needs to be cut lose, as Paul clearly teaches. I don't know any other way to read these verses.

You can quote verses about love and acceptance until you're blue in the face, but you cannot ignore the rest of the Scripture for fear of offending someone. As Paul said, a little leaven can work its way through the whole loaf; a little sin can infect an entire church. I think this is what we see happening in the church today. There was a time when an out of wedlock pregnancy was shameful. Now we throw a shower for person in the fellowship hall. I mean, it's all upside down.