Jesus' divinity

[WayneB]

Amen

[Mutzrein]

I am not a trinitarian in the generally accepted sense BUT I have no problem whatsover with Jesus preceding Abraham since He is the 'Word of God', the great 'I AM'. And I acknowledge Him as divine since he is the son of God.

My thoughts on this are: being divine and the chosen 'agent' of God no more makes him God than an earthly prince (who is the son of the king) can be king.

Jesus is divine, as is His Father. The Father is deity.

A prince is royal, as is his father. The father is king.

In each case, the son is given authority by the father, but he can never usurp his authority.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Mutzrein

[HAZARD]

Yeah, I know this is board says understanding Hebrew roots, but I thought it might be a good idea to go back to our original New Testament greek scrpts as well. I just wanted to open up to discussion the passage of John 8:58, where Jesus, if you read it, claims divinity, as not only the son of God, but as God himself.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born,I am!" - John 8:58 (NIV).

If you read on, in verse 59, the people try to stone him for blasphemy at this point. Liberal scholars and skeptics have tried to play down the importance of this verse in the doctrine of the Trinity, by trying to show that Jesus' words are better translated in some other way (eg, It is I, Jesus, before Abraham was born). Is this so?

So my question for this thread is this - Is Jesus attempting to convey his divinity by identifying himself as "I am", the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 4, or is this a Trinitarian mistranslation, an attempt by the translators to mislead the populace into believing that jesus is God?

For the record, I already have my opinion on this matter, that I'll happily share with you next time. For now, I'm interested in your opinions without the skewing of my ideas into the mix.

Regards, PA

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24).

[Fiosh]

John 18: 4-6...

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Isn't there the same power behind His words, "I am He" as there were in the statement, "I am"?

My Bible has it translated as simply "I AM", rather than "I am He".

Does anyone know what the Greek says???

Thanks,

F

10 So Pilate said to him, "Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?"

11

Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."

[ParanoidAndroid]

My Bible has it translated as simply "I AM", rather than "I am He".

Does anyone know what the Greek says???

English phrase first, followed by the Greek (I'm not a big fan of the KJV, but my Bible dictionary is attached to the KJV so I've quoted that version for ease of reference here).

As soon then as (hōs, oun) he had said (epō) unto them, (autos) I (ego') am (eimi) he, they went (aperchomai) backward, (eis, opisō) and (kai) fell (piptō petō) to the ground (chamai).

I'm not sure this passage is a reference to Jesus being God though. After researching a little further after someone else brought it up, this is an acceptable way of writing. This phrase is used quite frequently, but always in the context of a sentence, never as the final subject of a phrase, as was the case in John 8:58.

Hope that helps

Regards, PA

[rtwo]

Yeah, I know this is board says understanding Hebrew roots, but I thought it might be a good idea to go back to our original New Testament greek scrpts as well. I just wanted to open up to discussion the passage of John 8:58, where Jesus, if you read it, claims divinity, as not only the son of God, but as God himself.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born,I am!" - John 8:58 (NIV).

If you read on, in verse 59, the people try to stone him for blasphemy at this point. Liberal scholars and skeptics have tried to play down the importance of this verse in the doctrine of the Trinity, by trying to show that Jesus' words are better translated in some other way (eg, It is I, Jesus, before Abraham was born). Is this so?

So my question for this thread is this - Is Jesus attempting to convey his divinity by identifying himself as "I am", the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 4, or is this a Trinitarian mistranslation, an attempt by the translators to mislead the populace into believing that jesus is God?

For the record, I already have my opinion on this matter, that I'll happily share with you next time. For now, I'm interested in your opinions without the skewing of my ideas into the mix.

Regards, PA

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24).

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

[Phil.2:12]

John 18: 4-6...

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Isn't there the same power behind His words, "I am He" as there were in the statement, "I am"?

I missed that one, actually. Indeed, there is something special about this - why else would they fall to the ground if there was not something special in his words? Thanks for that.

The normal greek work order is verb, subject. Id that is reversed, it is usually for emphasis or in this case as an appeal to the OT

If you will check the Greek in this passage in John 18:4-6, you will find the words "ego eimi" and there is no word for "he" in the Greek. Clearly, Jesus again uses the Name of God to describe Himself there in the Garden of Gethsemane to those who wish to arrest Him. The "I Am" that God told Moses was His name indicates the everpresent God of the Universe. It is present tense and eloquently expresses God as the eternal "I AM", with no beginning (past tense) and no ending (future tense). God has always lived in the present and always will. Hence, for Jesus to use the Name of God to describe Himself shows a direct association with God Almighty by Jesus. The subtlety of the exprression "Ego Eimi" (I am) is lost when the editorially 'he' is added to Ego Eimi. The Greek has no word where the 'he' fits in this account, hence this word is italicized in the King James version. All other versions in print today have taken the KJV editor's insertion of 'he' as part and parcel of the actual Greek translation and thus the subtle distinction that Jesus was the great "I AM" seen in this passage is lost.

When the people fell down, I believe it was because of the power inherent in the Name of God "I AM". To put it another way, I believe that when Jesus used the Name of God "I AM" to identify Himself in the garden, the power behind that name was unleashed and the people were "slain in the Spirit" (to use a modern term). The miraculous event was not so much of the people falling down, but that Jesus went nowhere. When the people were again standing up, they were able to lead Jesus off to be crucified, because He did not attempt to flee and thus avoid the cross that day. In a sense, the cross was anti-climatic to the Garden of Gethsemane, where the real battle between Jesus and Satan took place. Jesus was true to His word. It was His Father's will that Jesus would obey, not His own will that He would do.

[HAZARD]

Yeah, I know this is board says understanding Hebrew roots, but I thought it might be a good idea to go back to our original New Testament greek scrpts as well. I just wanted to open up to discussion the passage of John 8:58, where Jesus, if you read it, claims divinity, as not only the son of God, but as God himself.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born,I am!" - John 8:58 (NIV).

If you read on, in verse 59, the people try to stone him for blasphemy at this point. Liberal scholars and skeptics have tried to play down the importance of this verse in the doctrine of the Trinity, by trying to show that Jesus' words are better translated in some other way (eg, It is I, Jesus, before Abraham was born). Is this so?

So my question for this thread is this - Is Jesus attempting to convey his divinity by identifying himself as "I am", the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 4, or is this a Trinitarian mistranslation, an attempt by the translators to mislead the populace into believing that jesus is God?

For the record, I already have my opinion on this matter, that I'll happily share with you next time. For now, I'm interested in your opinions without the skewing of my ideas into the mix.

Regards, PA

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24).

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

Thats right. The Word, who was with God before He became flesh was a member of the deity and as such God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us not the Father. Scripture shows many times when Jesus prayed to the Father He prayed to Him "in Heaven." Jesus knew where the Father was whilst Jesus was on Earth.

[roselady]

Sure Jesus was divine, part of the trinity and all. Heck, He is my Lord and savior and I look to him when I repent. Yup sure do, I am just a humble servant... Humble as it gets, I am just a housewife for Petes sake....

John 18: 4-6...

Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Isn't there the same power behind His words, "I am He" as there were in the statement, "I am"?

I missed that one, actually. Indeed, there is something special about this - why else would they fall to the ground if there was not something special in his words? Thanks for that.

The normal greek work order is verb, subject. Id that is reversed, it is usually for emphasis or in this case as an appeal to the OT

[Mutzrein]

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

I am a non-trinitarian and have described the meaning of this passage in another forum.

John 1