The Grape Vine and Unconditional Eternal Security

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Actually if memory serves me well UES is calvinisim. it is the "U" in the 5 points of calvinism

T.U.L.I.P

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No the P is the Perseverance of the Saints (the Calvinistic version of OSAS/UES)

TULIP is:

T= Total hereditary depravity

U=Unconditional election

L=Limited atonement

I=Irresistible grace

P=Perseverance of the saints

U=what we commonly call predestination (well, the Calvinistic version anyway).

UES/OSAS are one in the same. Perseverance of the saints is similiar, but different in some ways.

Thanks endure

I suppose I was describing unconditional election and perseverance of the saints when I described UES.

Thanks for the clarification.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[Hvnly1Rose]

This passage is pretty straight forward to me.  Abide (remain) in Him and you will be fruitful.  Abide NOT and you will be cut off and burned.

AMEN Sister!

[WayneB]

I think I will have a go at describing the difference between OSAS and UES

Thank you for clearing that up. I was using the two synonymously. Regardless, I believe neither is a correct doctrine.

[WayneB]

This is what I believe in relation to the verses of John 15. They were speaking of the unbelieving of Israel being cast out. I don't think this has anything to do with UES or OSAS other than the fact that the unbelieving Jews could escape being cast out through Christ

I do not agree because Jesus was speaking to the individual disciples when he said "you are the branch". Remember the context --- It was the night before His crucifixion and he was preparing them for what was about to come. His time with them was meant to be quality, one-on-one time, preparing them as individuals as to what they could expect in the future. Wow! What a privilege to have walked and talked with the Master...and they still didn't get it until much later. Regardless, there was no reference or inference to the collective body of Israel.

[WayneB]

Now here's what happens when one does NOT abide in the vine. He is cast forth. Checking the Thayer's, that word "cast" means "to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls" and the word "forth" means "without, out of doors". So, to "cast forth" is to be throw out of doors without caring where it falls". That doesn't sound like something that's going to be refined to me. That sounds like it is trash, rubbish or refuse. Also, to be cast out, one HAD to be IN which does not sound like someone who was "never saved to begin with". "Withered" means "to become dry" which, if anyone ever saw plants when they start to wither, means death is taking place. After all, if life is in the vine then death is surely being out of it. Next, these "branches" are gathered together and cast into the fire to be burned. That word "burned" means "to burn, consume with fire". That does not sound like refining.

Wow!!! You stated it so much better than I ever could. You added to my understanding. Thank you sister!

God Bless,

Wayne

[Jedi4Yahweh]

The whole point of the passage of scripture in John 15 is that we abide in Christ and bring forth fruit.

So how do we abide in Christ?

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(Joh 15:10)

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

(1Jo 3:24)

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(1Jo 2:3-4)

We abide in Christ by keeping his commandments.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. (John 14:21)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

(Joh 15:6-7)

Notice the conditional words "if". All of the promises of God are based on "if".

So I would say that our salvation is conditional.

[WayneB]

So I would say that our salvation is conditional.

Exactly...conditional that we remain in Christ. That's all we have to do and since we are His children He even gives us His power to stay in His flock. That is one of the roles of the Holy Spirit who was left with us once Jesus ascended into heaven. Does that mean we will never stumble and fall in the mud? NO, of coarse not. But when we do sin, the Word says that we grieve the Holy Spirit. But when we completely turn away from the Father...well, Jesus made it clear in the vineyard as He spoke to His disciples.

God Bless,

Wayne

[Guest shadow2b]

-On one last note, I still respect all three of these men of God. I don

[WayneB]

Thanks Shadow.

I think we agree but I will clarify my words. I completely agree...Wrong is wrong. But we aren't taking about "prophets" here where their prophecies must be 100% correct for them to be considered true prophets of God. We are talking about Christian ministers and teachers that are wrong regarding this aspect of doctrine but still have the core belief down solid. I still appreciate their teachings on other doctrine and their service to the Master. If we excluded all the teachers and ministers who were not 100% right all the time, we would be left with none. That's why I call these men of God brothers and do not not have to agree with them on every aspect of doctrine to appreciate them...just the core beliefs --- the basic Gospel message given us by the Master. Does that make sense? I hope I explained my earlier comment. If you see if different, I would appreciate to hear you side.

Mathew 23:8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

God Bless,

Wayne

[CWJ]

So I would say that our salvation is conditional.

Exactly...conditional that we remain in Christ. That's all we have to do and since we are His children He even gives us His power to stay in His flock.

God Bless,

Wayne

Oh my!....how you do contradict yourself.

So does this mean one can be more powerful than God? If we have His power, how can that power be undone?

Is it so easy.."that's all we have to do"....stay in Christ....but then you say it's with His power......

So....how can "we" be doing it...that is .....staying in Christ? If it's "we'..

then it can't be Him.......or can it?........

You really need to read that essay of interpretation of John 15 about the True Vine....STUDY it.....please.