The Grape Vine and Unconditional Eternal Security

[WayneB]

Oh my!....how you do contradict yourself.

Why are you going down this road? I can't follow you where you are taking this discussion on this thread or on your thread (I posted a response on it as well). I will end with this last clarification if you permit me.

God did not remove our free will when we accepted His plan for our salvation. We remain secure IF we abide in Christ...and yes, through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is He who convicts us of our sin and it is He we grieve when we sin. But we still have the FREE WILL to leave the sheepfold and go into the darkness where the Shepherd isn't there to protect (save) us.

Regardless, like I said on the other post --- thank you for your prayers and fellowship. As Paul and Barnabas went their separate ways, I think it best we do here as well. I will discuss most anything...but I will not argue.

God Bless,

Wayne

[Guest Teri]

If is a funny word isn't it. God told the Israelites that if they did all these things under the law then they would be saved. Of course we all know they didn't and COULDN'T and so the baton passed on to us. We read Romans and come to understand that the law only pointed out that they were sinners, made it more apparent and in need of a Savior. Now the door is open to the Gentiles, but had God not put the If out there the door would still be closed. So now we have a bunch of if's to do or not to do. And we have had about 2000 years of trying to figure out what all those if's are and are not and go running around pointing out all the different places that are not doing all the if's right. God always knew the Israelites wouldn't do the if's right, he always knew he would open the door in this manner. So if we know that then we would have to wonder what is He up to with our if's. And then low and behold we discover again in Romans that all the Jews will be saved.

I'm also wondering about the Greek translation of the word airo, and really let's be honest here, if we are going to throw out the original words that the apostles wrote from their own place of understanding without knowing any english and claim that we have a more superior translation then the original what in heavens name are we doing? Could it be possible that John wrote what he meant in his own tongue and that is what it means. The Strongs concordance is not a dictionary, what it is is a book that gives the meanings to words in the way that bible scholars have been using them for a time. It in no way gives the original exact meaning and you can not use it as a dictionary. I'm sorry you guys but if your going to so causully throw out the original meanings in the Greek and Hebrew then we can not possibly understand what the writer is trying to say to us. He is not talking to us from our language, nor from this point in time in which meanings have changed. Go tell an apostal that he is groovy, or cool what whould he think you were saying? I have been going through this for only a short time now, so I went to my search engine and put in Greek dictionary. I found it interesting that when I went to the Greek to English it asked if I wanted ancient or modern translations. Like English Greek has changed over the years. Of course what I want is ancient. And as it says in John the root supports the vine. Go to the root word find out what it means and you will there find the word, the root words of the original text that support the vine of our Word. This is so very important because Jesus is the Word so we can not just toss out what the apostles were saying in their own words, which came from Christ himself.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[endure4salvation]

CWJ said:

So does this mean one can be more powerful than God? If we have His power, how can that power be undone?

I Peter 1 tells us that there is the keeping power of God, but it also says that it is through our faith. We absolutly must have a doctrine that allows for both God's keeping power and us keeping the faith.

1 Peter 1:5

[CWJ]

CWJ said:

So does this mean one can be more powerful than God? If we have His power, how can that power be undone?

I Peter 1 tells us that there is the keeping power of God, but it also says that it is through our faith. We absolutly must have a doctrine that allows for both God's keeping power and us keeping the faith.

1 Peter 1:5

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Hi,

We are in a covenant relationship with God. The word Covenant means Contract. In any contract there are repsonsiblities for both parties. God has his responsibilites and You have your responsibilites. Contracts can be nullified if one party later neglects to fullfill his responsibilites. The New Covenant is not a one sided Contract or it would not be a Contract/Covenant.

Once you enter into a contract with God you are obligated to fulfill your part of the contract and God who can not lie will fulfill his part.

Now from what Iam getting from CWJ is that we are in a one sided contract with God. This is not a Covenant relatonship with God but a one-side relationship.

God is not obligated to fulfill his promise if you neglect to fulfill your part of the covenant.

[WayneB]

Wayne...I am not trying to argue, but I was trying to point out the obvious contradiction of your statement, especially in light of scriptures.

I'm glad you cleared that up because it never makes sense to argue doctrine.

Regardless, I do not see the contradiction obvious or otherwise. Once again, I am not saying that God will snatched away our salvation as a parent takes candy away from a child. Some may believe that but I don't and that is the confidence that Romans 11:29 gives us. I am secure in my salvation in Christ.

Regarding the power of the Spirit, it will convict and grieve but it will not replace our own free will. Have you ever considered the volume of unclaimed wealth in the United States. It blows me away...why would anyone not claim a portion of their wealth. It happens though regardless if I can explain it or not. Just ask a banker or a lawyer in real estate law. That's one reason why title searches are so critical before anyone buys property. The point...we may not understand it but there are many who do the same with their free gift salvation. I have known a few and it is those people that I have a burden for because the Word says there will be no second chance (an entirely different discussion).

One scripture that makes it clear, I think --

2 Peter2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

On another issue, though, I appreciate the discussion and fellowship. I sincerely do not want to argue nor do I want to be divisive. I just wanted to try to shed some light on the doctrine of Conditional Security if I can steal that term. Regardless, I find it comforting to know that the Father has me gently secure in his arms and I give Him all the glory.

God Bless,

Wayne

[Arthur Durnan]

Sorry, but I don't read ANYWHERE in Holy Writ of a person being "born THRICE" or "born again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, which would have to be the case if one could be saved, re-lost, re-saved, re-lost on into the night." When The Lord Jesus Christ says, "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never (Greek, comay - a TRIPLE NEGATIVE!) perish," I tend to think He really means it! Some kinbd folk have a knack, I fear, for pure imagination.

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for everlasting salvation so full & free, wrought by Your precious blood! I will never cease to thank You!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[endure4salvation]

When The Lord Jesus Christ says, "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never (Greek, comay - a TRIPLE NEGATIVE!) perish," I tend to think He really means it! Some kinbd folk have a knack, I fear, for pure imagination.

You are talking about John 10:28 no doubt. But if you look carefully, you will see that John 10:27 has a CONDITION placed upon those who will receive the promise of John 10:28--a continuing hearing and following of Jesus!

Sorry, but I don't read ANYWHERE in Holy Writ of a person being "born THRICE" or "born again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, which would have to be the case if one could be saved, re-lost, re-saved, re-lost on into the night."

You will no doubt agree that the Galatian church was "saved" right?

Well........

Galatians 4:8, 9, 11, 19, 20

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.  But now you know God...I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts from you...Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?...My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you...I am perplexed about you!

Here we see that The Apostle Paul was worried that all of his efforts on this church were completely wasted and his letter was an attempt to get Christ 're-formed' in them.

There is your second 'born-again'.

[WayneB]

Sorry, but I don't read ANYWHERE in Holy Writ of a person being "born THRICE" or "born again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, which would have to be the case if one could be saved, re-lost, re-saved, re-lost on into the night."

Actually I agree with you on this brother...but it isn't the subject of this thread. The Word is clear --

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Some kinbd folk have a knack, I fear, for pure imagination.

Just because we differ on opinion doesn't justify this comment Arthur. As brothers, let's try to stay above this type of exchange and focus on the question at hand, which is --

How do you, if you believe in the OSAS/UES doctrine, reconcile the Words of the Master in the vineyard?

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for everlasting salvation so full & free, wrought by Your precious blood! I will never cease to thank You!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Lord for your Son, Jesus Christ ,who paid for my sin and your Holy Spirit who directs my paths and gives me strength. I give you all the glory! Amen.

Arthur, I went to your webpage. I would enjoy reading more about your ministry. There are so many folks like you on this board who are serving the Master by taking the Word into the world. When you have a chance, please write about your ministry (that goes for all of you). I pray God bless your ministry and empower you to continue to take His Word to the lost.

God Bless brother,

Wayne

[CWJ]

Wayne...the vine in John 15 that you keep referring to is NOT about losing salvation. The "flawed" logic you claim from Arthur Pink in NOT so..You have miised his point and need to re-read the essay....slowly.

Hebrews 10:26..."For if we sin willfully after we have received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

Knowledge of the truth....one has heard the gospel...he knows what it is..and rejects it, turns from it, departs from the truth. A hardened heart results....lost.

verse 28.."Anyone who .....rejects Moses law dies......

Rejection is the thought....rejection of the truth, knowing what that truth is.

verse 29..."Of how much worse punishment do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

This points to the blood Jesus was sanctified with, not the rejector of the truth.

2 Peter 2;20...they were never made a new creature....they remained a

sow and a dog.

It is clear this passage must be interpreted from the new creature truth, that is , we can "know" about the truth, and it can influence our actions, but still even so one can be "non-re-born". this truth is shown in Luke 8:12

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should beleive and be saved."

One can have scripture in their heart, memorized, and still remain lost. They were never totally trusting in Jesus, and lost their grip without Him to "keep" them "in". He was unable to re-birth them without that they have proper type of belief.