Salvation "IF YOU"

[endure4salvation]

Hi Carl. Don't have much time right now, but did want to make a few quick comments.

You contradict yourself too obviously to help.

Well, maybe your understanding of what I am saying is contradictory, but I don't see it. Please explain to me where you see a contradiction and we will discuss it.

You can give no defining line of salvation loss.

Because there is no defining line in the Bible. It is not a cut and dry issue. My stance is that there are conditions upon our salvation and we need to meet them to be allowed entrance into heaven.

You can give no scripture of a saint being un-re-born.

You are putting an awful lot of emphasis on terms that are not in the Bible. You can provide no Scripture of a verse that says we are guarenteed entrance into heaven based upon one moment of belief. Salvation is described as a present-tense possession and a future tense promise for those who continue in the faith.

TRULY SAVED is one that will show the fruit (ie.)....IF you endure...If you continue...IF you obey His commands...IF  IF  IF ...you show fruit....YOU ARE TRULY SAVED!

Are you saying that we no longer have free will to reject God if we should so choose? What about Charles Darwin? He had a theology degree and yet rejected God's existance later on.

What about Charles Tempelton? He was a tag-teamer with Billy Graham for a few years, leading many thousands of people to make decisions for Christ and yet he wrote a book called 'Goodbye to God, My Reasons For Rejecting The Christian Faith.'

And here is an interesting website, made up of hardcore atheists who used to be Christians:

http://exchristian.net/

These are people who used to be Christians and now are atheists.

IF is not a condition...for this would contradict the simple and plain teachings that a saint will never perish.

What does "IF" mean if if doesn't mean if?

Also, even John 10:27 contains a condition to fall under the promise of John 10:28--hearing and following Jesus! That is a condition, not a given.

[WayneB]

These are people who used to be Christians and now are atheists.

Jake, I went to the website and began to read some of the testimonies. Did you feel it? Man, what a burden I felt for those folks. It literally brought tears to my eyes! We all have our work cut out for us --- to let the Holy Spirit use us and reach out to those that are lost. What darkness!!!!! Thank you Lord for bringing me into your Light! Amen. Bless you, Wayne

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

Endure, thanks for the name of that guy who used to work with Billy Graham. I was trying to remember his name (someone else brought him up on another forum I used to go to about a year ago). The fact is people who were TRULY SAVED and who bore fruit as evidence of their salvation depart from the faith, just as the Spirit of God expressly said they would (1 Timothy 4:1).

[CWJ]

I'm saying "IF" is not a condition, but an example of fruit bearing by a saint.

The "truly" saved is one who had the seed received on good ground. AND the fruit never dies out.

The "not truly saved" is the one whose seed fell on stoney ground, and yet had joy for a while, appearing to have everlasting fruit. But not "properly" grounded and rooted in Love, dies out.....stoney ground =hard heart.

A 'truly saved " person is rooted and grounded in the right thing, that being Jesus. Only Jesus, nothin added.

So...loss of salvation is not a "cut and dry" issue? mmmmm? Perhaps because for a born againsaint there is no loss!.

We cannot judge salvation of another....true!

But we can KNOW we have it!

1John 5:13 (present tense KNOW)

There is a verse that guarentees eternal life for a saint, from a one time belief! This makes you one of His sheep.

John 10:28..."And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my Father's hand."

NOW WHAT A SECURITY PROMISE! PRAISE HIM!

There is ONE condition for us to be saved...we must repent and belief in Jesus, and Him alone as the Way to Salvation, with NOTHING added!

"NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"

What , tell me,what do you depend on to "keep" you "in Christ"??

If you are 'saved", I assume you agree that one has been "saved" from torment, and the lake of fire. Right?

So....if like your examples of atheist...one "turns away"....then what was he

ever saved from? fOR IF THESE END UP IN THE LAKE OF FIRE....WE SHOULD SAY THEY WERE NEVER SAVED ....RIGHT?

So....Jake....Wayne......are you saved ? or is that something you don't know right now?

Because...from your stances...it is possible for you to turn away, and be lost!

Not to create anger...but I ask this to get you to face the "stance' you take, and face it bluntly!

I hope these aren't too many questions at once.

Blessings, Carl

[BlindSeeker]

I'm saying "IF" is not a condition . . .

Have you ever looked it up in a dictionary?

[WayneB]

1) What , tell me,what  do you depend on to "keep" you "in Christ"??

2) If you are 'saved", I assume you agree that one has been "saved" from torment, and the lake of fire.  Right?

3) So....Jake....Wayne......are you saved ?  or is that something you don't know right now?

Because...from your stances...it is possible for you to turn away, and be lost!

Not to create anger...but I ask this to get you to face the "stance' you take, and face it bluntly!

All fair questions Carl --- here are my brief answers...

1) I Trust in God for my salvation...I chose to remain in his shelter.

Psalm 91:1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

2) I have been saved from an eternity separated from the Father, which was the reason I came to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior... not out of a fear of hell or because of the promise of heaven but out of a true desire to have fellowship with my Father through whom all good things flow.

Psalm 91:14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD , "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. 15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

3) Thank you for asking Carl. Yes, and I am confident and secure in my salvation...no doubts. I pray your question was sincere and had no malice. If it did, I forgive you brother.

Isaiah 25:9 In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD , we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

Yes, Carl it is possible to turn away but I cannot imagine my life or an eternity in the dark. I choose the Light! I need the Light! I want the Light! Praise His holy name!

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.

See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." [Psalms 139:23,24] AMEN!

God Bless,

Wayne

[CWJ]

I'm saying "IF" is not a condition . . .

Have you ever looked it up in a dictionary?

I don't have to. When scripture is saying an "if" ....like...... "if you continue..."

It is qualifying the saint. As in .....you are a saint..if you (because you) bear the fruit of salvation...

which is.....perseverance, continuance, obedience, endurance......

I ASK THIS QUESTION AGAIN AS NOBODY HAS ANSWERED:

What do you rely upon to "keep" you in Christ?

And:

What was one who was "once" saved and turned away ever saved from to begin with?

Wayne...I assure you there is no malice in my questions, only a deep concern for the truth to be seen.

Romans 8:37-39:

37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

38 "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,"

39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[WayneB]

Carl, I am glad there is no malice in your question but only the desire for truth. I feel that I have answered your questions but that you just don't find my answers satisfactory. You asked, "What do I rely on to keep me in Christ?" God of coarse! BUT, and here it is...I must rely on Him. If I choose not to rely (abide) on (in) Christ, then He must let me go. He will not keep me in His shelter against my will!

Please indulge me and allow me to make a secular comparison. God likened our relationship to the Son as a marriage. I do not think that is just a coincidence. I was married 25 years ago when I was 19. I loved my wife from the first day BUT I was not a very good husband. I never had an affair nor have I ever hit her but I was mean and insensitive at times (still can be at times, God forgive me). Our marriage went through some "growing pains" just like most every other marriage does. Every marriage is different and falls somewhere on the scale between great and not so great. Ours was good but had some really bad moments. Now, what am I talking about? Today, after 25 years of growth, our marriage is "rock solid" --- it just didn't happen. It took "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Was our marriage perfect? NO Is it perfect today? NO Is it better today than it ever has been? YES We are committed to one another and I pray God blesses us with another 25 years. We are likened to one flesh now...been together so long and according to her, she is unwilling to train another! But here is my point --- never once did we think that we wouldn't spend the rest of lives together.

Unfortunately, many marriages do not have the same commitment and they do not last. With your understanding, you would say they weren't really married to begin with. I do not believe that. Yes, there are some that get married and are not sincere but there are many sincere couples that marry and years later divorce because they either grew apart (didn't nurture their marriage) or one of the partners broke their sacred trust. Either way, sin destroys marriages...in secular AND spiritual terms. Not a single sin or else my wife would have left me years ago BUT chronic sin...accepting sin as the norm and choosing not to abide in the marriage agreement.

I have answered your questions I believe. I don't know how to be anymore plain. I have given you personal testimonies, Scripture and analogies. I don't know what else to share but to say maybe it is time for you to pray and study God's Word in light of what has been shared with you.

God Bless,

Wayne

[WayneB]

What was one who was "once" saved and turned away ever saved from to begin with?

I missed your new question.

We never said that he/she was "turned away" no more than a marriage partner who is abandoned "turned away" his/her partner. It wasn't their will to be abandoned. Therefore your question is flawed. Since we agree on what we have been saved from there is no need to go further.

God Bless brother,

Wayne

[Arthur Durnan]

It';s certainly as clear as the nose on the face of Pinocchio that one can be saved only as many times as Jesus Christ died on the cross. If a person ciould be lost again after he's saved, he coukld never be saved again unless Jesus would return and die a second time, or a third time, or a fourth time in that the FIRST crucifixion of the saviour was totally IN SUFFICENT to guarantee everlasting salvation.

It's school-obvious that "becoming saved again & again" is not possible in view of Hebrews 6:4-6 which plainly states it's "IMPOSSIBLE to be renewed again unto repentance." IMPOSSIBLE means IMPOSSIBLE. THINK: NO renewal! NO "re-salvation"! NO "getting back on the road to Heaven"! What a horrendoius state of affairs! Those who teach a "O.S.T.R.T.R.T.R." philosophy (ie, "Once Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-Saved, Then Re-lost") had better not become "UN-saved" OR hell will be their jaundiced lot!

It's IMPOSSIBLE to be "saved twice" because one's very "loss of salvation" the first time would mean that the precise moment the Christian sins (James 2:10) after he has been converted, he could never be "re-saved" and he'd be hopeless. This would constitute no Gospel at all. This would in reality be a "Gospel of Myself Keeping Myself Saved!" I praise God that "He is able to keep me from falling". Thank You, Lord Jesus! All glory to the Lamb!

I HAVE passed (PAST tense) from (eternal) death to (eternal) life. Not "will", but "HAVE". I AM "born of the Spirit", not WILL BE, but AM. I AM a "NEW creation (2 Cor. 5:17), with NEW life from above, a NEW name, a NEW nature with NEW desires. As for my daily walk: "Shall I continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID! How shall we that ARE DEAD to sin, live any longer therein?" Here, then, is the precise biblical answer to the "Jimmy Swaggarts" & "Jim & Tammy Bakker's" who "hope" in themselves to "keep from being re-lost." Not US - but HIM! AMEN & All Glory to the Lord Jesus!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com