Head "OF" or head "OVER" .....

[Neopatriarch]

". . . Woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex, while production of woman comes from defect in the active force." (

[OopsMartin]

". . . Woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex, while production of woman comes from defect in the active force." (

[OopsMartin]

(Fr. God's Word to Women)

WORD STUDY on HELP as used in Genesis 2:18 & 20

HELP Strong's # 5828

(Hebrew = ezer) aid: -- help

Strong's Root = # 5826

(Hebrew = azar) azar = prime root: to surround, ie, protect or aid: help, succour

Gesenius adds that the primary idea lies in girding, surrounding, hence defending

MEET

(Hebrew = kenegdo) corresponding to, counterpart to, equal to matching

The traditional teaching for the woman as help (meet) is that of assistant or helper subservient to the one being helped. This definition would appear to line up with Strong's definition of the word. However, if you look at the context of every other use of the word ezer in the scripture, you will see that ezer refers to either God or military allies. In all other cases the one giving the help is superior to the one receiving the help. Adding kenegdo (meet) modifies the meaning to that of equal rather than superior status. Scripture is so awesome. God says just what He means.

Gen. 2: 18 And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23 And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Let's look at the events of the scenario:

1. We know from Gen. 1:26-28 that the plan was that God would make humanity male and female. But here we see God delays making the woman.

2. When God is saying that it is not good that the man should be alone, who is He talking to? Certainly not Himself, since it was already planned that humanity would be male and female.

3. God named directly a particular thing that the woman was to help, what was it?

4. God did not form the woman until AFTER the male discovered that "there was not found a helper comparable to him" among all the creatures. Do you think that was an accident, or perhaps God deliberately waited.

5. When God brought the woman to the man, it is likely that God described what He had done else how would the man know that this one was from his own bones and flesh?

6. There must be some relevance to the man thinking about cleaving to his woman, knowing that originally she was part of him, bone and flesh.

Now before we get into those six thoughts, let's look at the word God used that we translate "help" or "helper". It is good to remember that sometimes different languages are really really different. We only have a few words that represent different kinds of help , but Hebrew has over thirty (I counted 33, but I could have missed some). They even have a specific word for when someone utters a cry of help. So when this word ezer or azar (Hebrew was written with no vowels, so sometimes it's questionable which vowels were spoken) was used, we know it was chosen for it's specific qualities. Being familiar with it's meanings and uses in Scripture helps us to get a fuller picture of the kind of help that the woman was to provide, even though God says what the help is for in vs. 18.

The Dictionary of OT Theology and Exegesis (book 3) lists the general meaning as :help, support, succor, sustenance

[Openly Curious]

'OopsMartin'

The following quotes are in the book "10 Lies the Church Tells Women, by J. Lee Brady

This is all a bunch of bunk and I want entertain the lies in which you shared in this post as it is only planting bad seeds into women and mens mind. Also I am not a follower of Luther but of Christ and it is His teachings we should be looking at.

I notice that there is over 170 post now in this thread and you still have not explained your original OP straight up for all to see not one time but keep giving others mumbo jumbo instead. Why don't you tell the simpleton's among us like me straight up what you personally believe or don't believe in regards to the original OP or can you do that?

M. Hayte in "The New Eve IN Christ"

[Openly Curious]

Hello

[firehill]

I have a question. Has anyone else noticed that it is not recorded in Genesis chp 2 that God breathed life into the woman while it is recorded that he did breath life into the man?

After I came to my own conclusion why there is no mention of God doing so I came across a book a great while later that mentioned the absense of this and the author, regarding the matter said something to the effect that we can only assume that God breathed life into her too. There's that word 'assume' again! I don't like it very much. But I cannot fathom why God would of needed to breath life into the woman since she was formed from LIVING flesh (with blood) and bone. This is because as science and the bible agree, LIFE is in the BLOOD. I just wanted to post this as it occured to me just now. Nor can I fathom that once God took the flesh and bone that had life in it that it then died right there in His hands before He formed woman from it.

We all breath that very same breath of life that was given to Adam. No wonder then we all die in him...

I think this is another place where the church coming out of Christ comes into the picture. Christ was resurrected and our life is in him and since our new life comes from being IN him (as the woman was in the man before she was created) how could our FORMATION (like the woman's) be dead to begin with? Through His life (life is in the blood!), we live!

And oh, can't help but point out that the very next verse in Genesis after the verse that speaks of the man's recognition of the woman's constitution and where she came from is the famous 'For this reason....' the man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one. It is the very same verse that Paul quotes in Ephesians 5 but speaking of Christ and the church. How awesome is that?!

Didn't mean to get a little off the specific issues being addressed. The creation accounts and Ephesians 5 move me so I couldn't help it.

[Openly Curious]

'firehill'

I have a question. Has anyone else noticed that it is not recorded in Genesis chp 2 that God breathed life into the woman while it is recorded that he did breath life into the man?

Yes, I have noticed that but never thought it was much of a mystery as all breath comes from God to start with whether God breathed it into her or created her alive it still came from God.

I think this is another place where the church coming out of Christ comes into the picture. Christ was resurrected and our life is in him and since our new life comes from being IN him (as the woman was in the man before she was created) how could our FORMATION (like the woman's) be dead to begin with? Through His life (life is in the blood!), we live!

Are you saying that the Church comes out of Christ like the Church is an extension of Christ's body like the woman is an extension of the man's body. If you are saying that do you see that Christ is the head of His body and the man is the head of the woman. You are saying that the Church get's it's life from God and the woman in the garden got her life from man.

It's the last sentence you are unclear about could you explain further and more clearer perhaps.

OC

[firehill]

Are you saying that the Church comes out of Christ like the Church is an extension of Christ's body like the woman is an extension of the man's body. If you are saying that do you see that Christ is the head of His body and the man is the head of the woman. You are saying that the Church get's it's life from God and the woman in the garden got her life from man.

I can go with your expression of 'extension' but I'd also have to go much FURTHER than that... I think I see what you are asking.

Let me turn the body metaphor around to see if I'm understanding you correctly. I think that what I see you meaning to express is an issue of ownership through the 'extension' analogy. And through the ownership there would be an element of authority over (i.e. as 'head') that which is owned. In other words if someone else is an extension of ME thereby NOT INDEPENDENT of me then I have ownership over that person and since I have ownership over that person I would have authority over them. Is that what you are getting at?

You are saying that the Church get's it's life from God and the woman in the garden got her life from man.

The church gets it's life from God through Christ.

It's the last sentence you are unclear about could you explain further and more clearer perhaps.

I've been editing my post as I do on occasion trying to get my words out right. So do you mean this one?

'Through His life (life is in the blood!), we live!'

[Openly Curious]

'Openly Curious'

Are you saying that the Church comes out of Christ like the Church is an extension of Christ's body like the woman is an extension of the man's body. If you are saying that do you see that Christ is the head of His body and the man is the head of the woman. You are saying that the Church get's it's life from God and the woman in the garden got her life from man.

'Firehill'

I can go with your expression of 'extension' but I'd also have to go much FURTHER than that... I think I see what you are asking.

Let me turn the body metaphor around to see if I'm understanding you correctly. I think that what I see you meaning to express is an issue of ownership through the 'extension' analogy. And through the ownership there would be an element of authority over (i.e. as 'head') that which is owned. In other words if someone else is an extension of ME thereby NOT INDEPENDENT of me then I have ownership over that person. Is that what you are getting at?

In reference to ownership that would only apply to the church in that he paid the ransom price and brought us with His own blood and we as believer belong to Him no longer belonging to the kingdom of darkness but to the kingdom of light. I am not sure how far you will take the ideaology of ownership so I am being very careful as I can be here. It's not so much between man and woman one of ownership as it is that we are part of the same body we are part of one another as children are a part of both the woman and the man they are part of your body of an extension of it.

Women are part of men's bodies but at the same time both man and woman as believers are still children of God belonging to the church in which Christ is the head over his children do you see what I am saying. And when men and women go to the house of God then God has a order to which he wants us to worship him in and that order is that the entire family down to the children be in order and in the role God created us to fulfill both men and women are to pray lifting up holy hands like it says in 1 Timothy 2 women are to be meek and humble in the house of God learning in silence the word of God as it is taught that is God's order for worship in public. It is no hardship or a bad thing to abide by.

Women came out of men no doubt about it is as biblical a fact as the nose on one's face. But man was given dominion not ownership of what God created meaning man has a responsibility over what God had made. In the home when a man take a wife he took on a responsibility and has to care for her as his own body because she is part of his own body and has to see to it she is cared for. If the couple thus has children as a result of their love for one another then the children are still the Lord's but you have been given a responsibility to nuture and care for those children as they were put in your trust especially to raise and influence them while growing to adulthood. But they are your children in a figurative sense and they are an extension of the man's body. I hope I have been clear.

OC

[firehill]

It's not so much between man and woman one of ownership as it is that we are part of the same body we are part of one another as children are a part of both the woman and the man they are part of your body of an extension of it.

Okay so the 'extension' part is kind of a matter of ownership? I do see what you are saying regarding children being part of the mother and father and thereby an extension of both parents.

Women are part of men's bodies but at the same time both man and woman as believers are still children of God belonging to the church in which Christ is the head over his children do you see what I am saying.

Women are part of men's bodies just as men are through their fathers. Christ is head over God's children. I see what you are saying.

And when men and women go to the house of God then God has a order to which he wants us to worship him in and that order is that the entire family down to the children be in order and in the role God created us to fulfill both men and women are to pray lifting up holy hands like it says in 1 Timothy 2 women are to be meek and humble in the house of God learning in silence the word of God as it is taught that is God's order for worship in public. It is no hardship or a bad thing to abide by.

This is too much at this point for me to address though I don't mind responding to it later at all. I would like to at least keep with the creational aspects of the present issue between us and especialy since we are kinda going off on a side note from what the OP is presently discussing. That was my fault. I know. Sorry, Oops! So we are off on a side note but at least let's keep with it before changing the discussion material.

Women came out of men no doubt about it is as biblical a fact as the nose on one's face. But man was given dominion not ownership of what God created meaning man has a responsibility over what God had made.

Woman was taken from man.

Both were given 'dominion' over what God created after He made them (1:28) and He said that He was going to give it to them before either were made (1:26) as can be seen below:

oopsMartin:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

We see that God established two commands about humanity and the only authority God mentions is to command BOTH the man and the woman to be responsible for the earth's creatures ; and to command BOTH the man and the woman to take responsibility to fill the earth with their own kind.

In the home when a man take a wife he took on a responsibility and has to care for her as his own body because she is part of his own body and has to see to it she is cared for. If the couple thus has children as a result of their love for one another then the children are still the Lord's but you have been given a responsibility to nuture and care for those children as they were put in your trust especially to raise and influence them while growing to adulthood. But they are your children in a figurative sense and they are an extension of the man's body. I hope I have been clear.

OC

Other than the two phrases 'then the children are still the Lord's' (which I don't think we need to discuss that here) and also 'they are an extension of the man's body' to the exclusion of the wife's I agree. I'll just add that children are from both parents.

I had to edit this post. I also disagree with the phrase 'they are your (as in a mother's) children in a figurative sense. What do you mean by that?