Head "OF" or head "OVER" .....

[methinkshe]

Apparently Eve must have been capable of sin before she ate the forbidden fruit. Otherwise she never would have made it that far as to even decide to disobey God.

And I totally agree with Ruth that power and authority are NOT synonymous. I have the power to do alot of things, but not the authority. When you try to make them see synonomous, you make God's design of authority seem perverted. Putting a negative view on authority basically.

Openly Curious, Apothenian Kerdos, Methinksshe, Neopartriarch, and others who believe in the proper meaning of headship: Please give me your thoughts on this and help me learn.

In Ephesians 5 it says that the husband is head of the wife, and it says that the husband ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. The head/body part is what has my interest. And then the verse that says we are created to be a a help-meet to our husbands. My hubby is my head and he is to care for me as his own body essentially? And does that connect to being one flesh as it says in Ephesians 5:31?

Dear Emily Anne

I can only agree with your understanding. And what a blessed position it is that we women have! It is no burden to be under the authority of one who loves you so much that he is prepared to lay down his life for you, which is what Christ did for His bride, the church, and what husbands are enjoined to do for their wives. That there exist abusive husbands who mistake authority for power, in no way negates the order that God has ordained. It just means that such men are mistaken. And may I add that I believe we wives should not be party to such mistakes, and even less, give them our blessing.

Love in Jesus,

Ruth

[Openly Curious]

inhistime

On this one instead of breaking down what you have said in post # 294 I think I will just interject my input on 1 Corinthians 11

First I want to say that you have to take this passage as a whole as Paul is trying to convey something in regards to proper worship within God's divine order. Also it is very important to understand that the apostle Paul is speaking to "believers" at the Corinthian church and not to the worldly crowd being the "unbelievers." In God's house He has a divine order in which the Lord wants us to each conduct ourselves as this is a very befitting verse as the Lord is not the author of "confusion" and it's when mankind goes against God's order that there is confusion. This chapter ties in with 1 Timothy 2 as it deals with prayer in the worship service and the proper order of things and gives the reason why it is to be so in verses #13-15 of that text.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I want to interject just briefly that in verse 2 of the passage Paul is wanting the believers at Corinth to keep the "ordinances" as he delivered them indicating to one that what he is saying next is an ordinance of the church in what is getting ready to say next (food for thought anyway)

But the above verse is something Paul wants the believers to know and to understand and it's God's divine order from the beginning as everything that is was created by the word of God and the Word is Christ which has been there from the beginning with God. (John 1). So God's divine order from the beginning is God the Father head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and the man is the head of the woman.

Reason being is God is the Father Christ is the Son Adam was created first then Eve.

verses 4 of the text is speaking to me in regards to praying and prophesying or preaching under the anointing having long hair in other words as it says those that do this dishonors their head being Christ Jesus himself they give no glory to God in doing so in public houses of worship.

verse 5 speaks to the women that pray and prophesy with short hair as she bring no glory to the man from whence she is part of and it is better in this case if she just goes ahead and shaves off her hair altogether as it would be better in that regards because they are both one. But it brings no glory to her head in what she is doing. It becomes a ugly thing.

verse 7 a man should not have long hair on his head in public worship because he is the image and glory of God as Adam was first formed then Eve. But the woman is the glory of man for she was taken out of man for man as the next verses goes into

verse 8-9 The man was not taken out of the woman but the woman out of man and the man wasn't created for the woman but the woman for the man that is very plain in it's meaning.

verse 10 For this cause the verse starts out and it reminds me of (Ephesians 5:31). In other words this is the reason why woman is suppose to have hair on their heads in public worship and it is because of the angels. Well what does that mean it simply means that man was created a little lower than the angels in God's divine order of creation and for that reason we should not go around with shaven or shorn heads. As the angels of God are ministering spirits on our behalf. And we don't want a prayer life to be hinder in anyway because of the way we conduct ourselves in a manner against the word.

verse 11-12 Both of the sexes need one another or else the human race would cease to exist

verse 13 tells us to judge in ourselves is it comely or a beautiful thing to see a woman praying to God in public with her hair shaven or shorn off. the answer is no it is not because she has taken her own glory away from her head.

verse 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him But if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her for her hair is given her for a covering. Well according to apostle Paul nature itself is suppose to teach us some things so let's look at it for a moment. What does nature within itself let us know first that there has to be a Creator who created all that we see and don't see even down to woman and men we know we have a Creator as the things we see are evidence of a Creator okay that being the case. We know and learn that we are "under" the control and authority of that Creator and we know from the word just how men and women came into existence as Adam was first formed then Eve. That is what nature teaches us that we are all under the Creator. The man is suppose to be subject to Christ and when he covers his head up with having long hair then it dishonors and shames his head being Christ Jesus and it is a shame to those who do this in public worship. Because a man is suppose to reflect the glory of his head being Christ but instead he covers his head bringing shame and hiding his head.

verse 15 But when a woman has long hair it is a good thing as it is a glory to her a beautiful thing in other words as she reflects the glory of man as her head from whence she came and it is her glory and it gives her power on her head in that her beauty can attract other men.

verse 16 but if their are those in the churches who wish not to abide by the things apostle Paul has said then Paul tells them straight up none of the churches of God has those worldly customs of woman shaving their heads and men growing long hair.

To look at 1 Corinthians 11 you got to look at all of what I have said to get the full picture as it is dealing with the proper way to conduct and not to conduct ourselves in public worship.

OC

[inhistime]

Hi Ruth,

Actually what you have said is a good example of how we have read the patriarchal view into the scriptures. Because we have thought that God speaks only through the man, we have not believed Eve when she gave her testimony about what God said to her. God

[inhistime]

One other thing I should add - even Jesus listened to Satan in the wilderness. Listening to Satan is not a sin because Jesus listened to him. However Jesus did not do as Satan suggested therefore hearing someone's words is not a sin, but following their actions to sin is certainly wrong.

Blessings!

Cheryl

[OopsMartin]

Hi Ruth,

Actually what you have said is a good example of how we have read the patriarchal view into the scriptures. Because we have thought that God speaks only through the man, we have not believed Eve when she gave her testimony about what God said to her. God's words in scripture either are quoted directly from God or they are from a person who quotes what God has told them. It is their testimony. Eve tells us what God told her and Eve did not lie. God told her not to even touch the fruit. Why would we think that Eve's testimony of what God told her is not true? That doesn't make sense. If we don't believe a sinless woman (sinless at the time that she spoke these words) then we have to believe that Eve's first sin was adding to God's words. God has told us through scripture that he will not hold one faultless who adds to his words. God has also told us that he will reprove one who adds to his words. Where did God reprove Eve for adding to his words? He didn't because she didn't add to his words. To attribute sin to Eve before she ate the fruit by claiming that she added to God's words is just one sign of the mindset that reads into scripture the complementarian view. I used this reasoning with a professor from our local seminary and he told me that he had never thought this through before. He was always taught that Eve added to God's words but reasoning it through showed him that this was not possible nor logical. What reason would Eve have to lie about what God said? Eve's testimony stands because it comes from one whom God spoke to and who gave her testimony about what God said.

There are some issues with your argument.

1. The only direct quote we have from God in the account occurs in Genesis 2:16-17

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."

Genesis 2:16-17 HCSB

2. In her interaction with Satan, Satan begins by supposedly quoting what God told her:

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Genesis 3:1 HCSB

So Satan has basicallly exaggerated (or added to the limitations) placed on the people by God.

3. Eve bites on this, because now she responds that God has told them they can't even touch the fruit. This is the first sign that she has begun to listen to the lies of the serpent.

You argument seems to be that:

1. Eve was born sinless.

2. Since she was born sinless, she could not have lied about what God told her

3. Therefore God did tell her that she could not touch it.

What I think is more likely is that the account of what God said in Genesis 2 is accurate. Eve's sin began when she questioned God's character. Part of that questioning of God's character was listening to Satan and making God out to be "stingy". The scriptures don't tell us at exactly what point in the temptation that Eve entered into sin. Your argument seems to hinge that actual sin did not take place til she took the bite. If Jesus was right, and God looks at the heart, my guess is that Eve at already committed sin at this point because she had listend to Satan, and begun to question God's motives. Your argument seems to imply that the real sin issue was taking "the bite of the fruit". I think the text tells us that "taking the bite" was just the end of the chain. Satan planted a seed of doubt regarding God's character, and Eve listened.

In addition, your position that Eve's response to Satan would actually fit the concept of adding to scripture is a logical leap.

Erich, I see some problems with your argument. Not only was Eve born sinless, she was completely na

[Emily~Anne]

One other thing I should add - even Jesus listened to Satan in the wilderness. Listening to Satan is not a sin because Jesus listened to him. However Jesus did not do as Satan suggested therefore hearing someone's words is not a sin, but following their actions to sin is certainly wrong.

Blessings!

Cheryl

Eve had to decide to disobey God in order to eat the forbidden fruit. Eve did not unknowingly choose to eat the forbidden fruit, otherwise you'd have a point. therefore, Eve sinned before she even ate the forbidden fruit.

Jesus never decided to disobey God when he was in the wilderness and Satan spoke to him. There is a difference between hearing something and actually listening. Jesus heard Satan, but did not actually listen and do any of Satan's suggestions.

[OopsMartin]

The Soapbox is a debate forum. If you can't agree to a debate format, then you're never going to get me in there. I'll abide by George's layout to a degree, but it is not mutually exclusive to what I have above. What is above limits the topic. This is not a "college exercise," that is how most professional debates are handled.

Besides, if you can't state your point 18,000 words, then you don't have a point.

I'm sorry, but I am not interested in that format. If you cannot agree to George's layout, then I suggest you just start a thread on the meaning of kephale in the N.T. My guess is that the discussion will be all over the place from subordination in the trinity to creation order, roles, etc. but that is the way of people who don't listen to each other.

However, I will join you there and offer input and my point of view.

[apothanein kerdos]

The Soapbox is a debate forum. If you can't agree to a debate format, then you're never going to get me in there. I'll abide by George's layout to a degree, but it is not mutually exclusive to what I have above. What is above limits the topic. This is not a "college exercise," that is how most professional debates are handled.

Besides, if you can't state your point 18,000 words, then you don't have a point.

I'm sorry, but I am not interested in that format. If you cannot agree to George's layout, then I suggest you just start a thread on the meaning of kephale in the N.T. My guess is that the discussion will be all over the place from subordination in the trinity to creation order, roles, etc. but that is the way of people who don't listen to each other.

However, I will join you there and offer input and my point of view.

Your original post did just that. Your original post was dealing with kephale. No thanks - why would I offer up a new discussion on kephale when you already made the topic for it? We'll discuss it in here, whether you want to or not.

Anyone interested?

[OopsMartin]

One other thing I should add - even Jesus listened to Satan in the wilderness. Listening to Satan is not a sin because Jesus listened to him. However Jesus did not do as Satan suggested therefore hearing someone's words is not a sin, but following their actions to sin is certainly wrong.

Blessings!

Cheryl

Eve had to decide to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit in order to eat the fruit. Eve did not unknowingly choose to eat the forbidden fruit, otherwise you'd have a point. therefore, Eve sinned before she even ate the forbidden fruit.

Jesus never decided to disobey God when he was in the wilderness and Satan spoke to him. There is a difference between hearing something and actually listening. Jesus heard Satan, but did not actually listen and do any of Satan's suggestions.

Cheryls point was excellent. Listening was not sin. And in the case of Adam and Eve they had no idea that the serpent was evil or they might not have listened to him. Deciding to disobey is a different story. Yet, it was not sin until the thoughts were put into action. When desire has conceived, has brought forth the action, then is sin birthed. And WHEN sin is birthed that is when death is brought forth. That is when shame was known by them for the first time. It was the seal of their sin.

Eve was deceived into eating of the forbidden fruit. She did not realize this until afterwards. In other words, she DID unknowingly eat the forbidden fruit. Yes, she physically knew she was eating the fruit, but her understanding of what she was doing had been confused and befuddled by the serpent. The serpent being the cleverest of all people had drawn the woman into his web of deception by engaging her in deceptive tricky conversation. But whether unknowingly (as Eve did) or knowingly deliberately (as Adam did), the results were the same

[inhistime]

inhistime

On this one instead of breaking down what you have said in post # 294 I think I will just interject my input on 1 Corinthians 11

First I want to say that you have to take this passage as a whole as Paul is trying to convey something in regards to proper worship within God's divine order. Also it is very important to understand that the apostle Paul is speaking to "believers" at the Corinthian church and not to the worldly crowd being the "unbelievers." In God's house He has a divine order in which the Lord wants us to each conduct ourselves as this is a very befitting verse as the Lord is not the author of "confusion" and it's when mankind goes against God's order that there is confusion. This chapter ties in with 1 Timothy 2 as it deals with prayer in the worship service and the proper order of things and gives the reason why it is to be so in verses #13-15 of that text.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I want to interject just briefly that in verse 2 of the passage Paul is wanting the believers at Corinth to keep the "ordinances" as he delivered them indicating to one that what he is saying next is an ordinance of the church in what is getting ready to say next (food for thought anyway)

But the above verse is something Paul wants the believers to know and to understand and it's God's divine order from the beginning as everything that is was created by the word of God and the Word is Christ which has been there from the beginning with God. (John 1). So God's divine order from the beginning is God the Father head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and the man is the head of the woman.

Reason being is God is the Father Christ is the Son Adam was created first then Eve.

verses 4 of the text is speaking to me in regards to praying and prophesying or preaching under the anointing having long hair in other words as it says those that do this dishonors their head being Christ Jesus himself they give no glory to God in doing so in public houses of worship.

verse 5 speaks to the women that pray and prophesy with short hair as she bring no glory to the man from whence she is part of and it is better in this case if she just goes ahead and shaves off her hair altogether as it would be better in that regards because they are both one. But it brings no glory to her head in what she is doing. It becomes a ugly thing.

verse 7 a man should not have long hair on his head in public worship because he is the image and glory of God as Adam was first formed then Eve. But the woman is the glory of man for she was taken out of man for man as the next verses goes into

verse 8-9 The man was not taken out of the woman but the woman out of man and the man wasn't created for the woman but the woman for the man that is very plain in it's meaning.

verse 10 For this cause the verse starts out and it reminds me of (Ephesians 5:31). In other words this is the reason why woman is suppose to have hair on their heads in public worship and it is because of the angels. Well what does that mean it simply means that man was created a little lower than the angels in God's divine order of creation and for that reason we should not go around with shaven or shorn heads. As the angels of God are ministering spirits on our behalf. And we don't want a prayer life to be hinder in anyway because of the way we conduct ourselves in a manner against the word.

verse 11-12 Both of the sexes need one another or else the human race would cease to exist

verse 13 tells us to judge in ourselves is it comely or a beautiful thing to see a woman praying to God in public with her hair shaven or shorn off. the answer is no it is not because she has taken her own glory away from her head.

verse 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him But if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her for her hair is given her for a covering. Well according to apostle Paul nature itself is suppose to teach us some things so let's look at it for a moment. What does nature within itself let us know first that there has to be a Creator who created all that we see and don't see even down to woman and men we know we have a Creator as the things we see are evidence of a Creator okay that being the case. We know and learn that we are "under" the control and authority of that Creator and we know from the word just how men and women came into existence as Adam was first formed then Eve. That is what nature teaches us that we are all under the Creator. The man is suppose to be subject to Christ and when he covers his head up with having long hair then it dishonors and shames his head being Christ Jesus and it is a shame to those who do this in public worship. Because a man is suppose to reflect the glory of his head being Christ but instead he covers his head bringing shame and hiding his head.

verse 15 But when a woman has long hair it is a good thing as it is a glory to her a beautiful thing in other words as she reflects the glory of man as her head from whence she came and it is her glory and it gives her power on her head in that her beauty can attract other men.

verse 16 but if their are those in the churches who wish not to abide by the things apostle Paul has said then Paul tells them straight up none of the churches of God has those worldly customs of woman shaving their heads and men growing long hair.

To look at 1 Corinthians 11 you got to look at all of what I have said to get the full picture as it is dealing with the proper way to conduct and not to conduct ourselves in public worship.

OC

Openly Curious,

Thanks for sharing your view of 1 Corinthians 11.

You are mixing up head coverings and hair. You said