Head "OF" or head "OVER" .....

[OopsMartin]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

huh? Can I have that in a non stero insturction format?

[Emily~Anne]

There seems to be an idea that in order for us to love each other, we must have equal authority. I dont get that?

[Openly Curious]

I want to add, in our house, the humans are in charge, not our pets. We love and value and cherish them very much, but we do rule over them.

Now, concerning Ruck1b's definition of subdue and dominion, I not so sure that is right either. God intended we tread down and negatively disregard and violate his creatures even before the fall? God created us above them, yes, but I dont think God had in mind for us to abuse them unnecessarily, especially in the garden of Eden.

'even before the fall?'

What's going on?

Ahem. *clearing my throat*

I know God did not have in mind for us to abuse them at all, especially at any time in and outside of the garden. I didn't know it was about abuse. 'I don't think God had in mind for us to abuse them unnecessarily especialy in the garden of Eden.' Unnecessarily? I will go back and read Ruck's post.

Ruling and having authority over the animals of the earth is not abuse firehill it is a responsibility to care for them else they would run amuck on the face of the earth the cows have to be milked everyday and so forth it is a place of responsiblity.

I get so sick of the women's mindsets that that think because a man has authority and are to rule over the woman that it is a bad thing when it is not it is a place of taking responsiblity for the wife he has taken to himself and the children that may come out of the love they share together it is "NOT" a male dominance thing in which many are turning it into as it has nothing to do with men walking on top of a woman to belittle her even though there are males that do this in our society and it is wrong. To rule is to have responsibility to tend unto and look after. In marriage a man has his God given role and responsibility to fulfill and the wife has her God given role and responsibility to fulfill it that simple and it is a secure place being under a godly man who is following Christ and not a burden.

The feminist movement thrives on this mindset and is bent on teaching it to other women thinking they are liberating them when the feminist movement don't have the power to free anyone from so called male dominance. If you don't want to walk in submission then you don't have to you have free will but more than likely you are not submitting to Christ's rule in your life as well. Of course you probably think that Christ rule is abuse over you huh and you have the freedom to do your own thing but Christ's rule in our lives is when we take on the responsibility of our Christian life and begin doing the work as we submit our wills to our head.

Mean men in this world have hurt a lot of women in alot of bad ways and it has left some women so hard and against men in general to the point they will not submit to them in any form. Then on the flip side there are mean woman in this world who have done a number on the men in this world to the point they will not rightfully care for his wife and family as the bible says he should. Then there are bad parents who did not give good examples to the children growing up and some men and women have tainted ideas towards marriage in general but the bible is the only guide that we have to go by that tells us and shows us the right way and then they are folks trying to wipe out what it says. If they don't like something they just mentally ripe it out and ignore pretty soon one is going to run out of pages if not careful then what?

OC

[firehill]

OC:Ruling and having authority over the animals of the earth is not abuse firehill it is a responsibility to care for them else they would run amuck on the face of the earth the cows have to be milked everyday and so forth it is a place of responsiblity.

Good points. We are to care for them and they are a responsibility of ours.

I don't understand what you are refering too. I didn't see the words 'rule' and 'authority' at all in EmilyAnn's second paragraph which I specificaly addressed. Neither did I mention one word on 'rule' and 'authority' over animals. I only spoke on abuse. There is a difference between rule, authority and abuse. To 'rule' is not necessarily to abuse for example. There is good rule and bad rule.

[OopsMartin]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

huh? Can I have that in a non stero insturction format?

Ok sorry. How is this?

Do you believe that at creation God established a social order of man over woman. If you do, I would like to know which Scriptures you base this on. If you don

[followerofjesus]

I'm tired of my religious wife bossing me around all the time.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Basically the men are accountable for how the household is run. That accountability is to God.....Just as a pastor is accountable for what his flock is taught.

[Openly Curious]

OC:Ruling and having authority over the animals of the earth is not abuse firehill it is a responsibility to care for them else they would run amuck on the face of the earth the cows have to be milked everyday and so forth it is a place of responsiblity.

Good points. We are to care for them and they are a responsibility of ours.

I don't understand what you are refering too. I didn't see the words 'rule' and 'authority' at all in EmilyAnn's post. Neither did I mention one word on 'rule' and 'authority' over animals. I only spoke on abuse. There is a difference between rule, authority and abuse.

No, you mentioned "abuse" Why don't you tell me what the difference is between the three of them then?

OC

[Openly Curious]

I'm tired of my religious wife bossing me around all the time.

awe, will pray for her

oc