Head "OF" or head "OVER" .....

[followerofjesus]

thanx please pray for me too.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

huh? Can I have that in a non stero insturction format?

Ok sorry. How is this?

Do you believe that at creation God established a social order of man over woman. If you do, I would like to know which Scriptures you base this on. If you don

[OopsMartin]

Mean men in this world have hurt a lot of women in alot of bad ways and it has left some women so hard and against men in general to the point they will not submit to them in any form. Then on the flip side there are mean woman in this world who have done a number on the men in this world to the point they will not rightfully care for his wife and family as the bible says he should. Then there are bad parents who did not give good examples to the children growing up and some men and women have tainted ideas towards marriage in general but the bible is the only guide that we have to go by that tells us and shows us the right way and then they are folks trying to wipe out what it says. If they don't like something they just mentally ripe it out and ignore pretty soon one is going to run out of pages if not careful then what?

OC

Good thoughts. Most everyone, man, woman and child have been hurt by someone that should have loved and supported them. This is no excuse for writing off good relationships, friends, marriage, etc. I know some of my male friends have been so wounded that they don't ever want to marry again. which is all the more reason we as Christians need to put our best foot forward and really try to be the light of the world, good examples of God's ways.

[followerofjesus]

your right about that

[apothanein kerdos]

Why debate OopsMartin, he's dishonest. Below are links to his posts, and the websites he plagiarized with these posts...in this topic alone. People, why waste your time?:

Post #1

Post #2

Website for both

Post #3

Website for Post #3

Post #4

Website for Post #4

[Openly Curious]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

huh? Can I have that in a non stero insturction format?

Ok sorry. How is this?

Do you believe that at creation God established a social order of man over woman. If you do, I would like to know which Scriptures you base this on. If you don

[firehill]

OC:Ruling and having authority over the animals of the earth is not abuse firehill it is a responsibility to care for them else they would run amuck on the face of the earth the cows have to be milked everyday and so forth it is a place of responsiblity.

Good points. We are to care for them and they are a responsibility of ours.

I don't understand what you are refering too. I didn't see the words 'rule' and 'authority' at all in EmilyAnn's post. Neither did I mention one word on 'rule' and 'authority' over animals. I only spoke on abuse. There is a difference between rule, authority and abuse.

No, you mentioned "abuse" Why don't you tell me what the difference is between the three of them then?

OC

Yes, I did mention abuse, not rule or authority.

God's rule whom has all authority is never abusive.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Well OK!

So now what I would like to discuss is the idea of the "order of creation".

Kevin Giles in The Trinity & Subordination, chapter eight....

"The most fundamental element in the hierarchical-complementarian position is tha the (role) subordination of women is based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation before the Fall. This presents the ideal for the man-woman relationship that not even the coming of Christ challenges. Writing in "Women in the Church", Daniel Doriani says that "nineteen of the twenty-two authors i(in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) argue for their position on the basis of creation or the order of creation . . . on at least 81 pages". In 'Women in the Church', every one of the authors grounds women's permanent role subordination on the social order given in creation. That women were created second is often mentioned in this book, but what is determinative is always the constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation.

.......The creation-order argument is pivotal to the hierarchical-complementarian case because it allows the apostolic exhortations for wives to be subordinate to their husbands and the two commands for women to keep silent in church to be read as transcultural, permanently binding rulings. Egalitarn-complementarians are not unaware of these exhortations and prohibitions; they simply do not accept that they are based on an unchanging constituitive and prescriptive social order given in creation."

So do the hierarchalists agree with what Giles is saying here? . . . That the order of creation is a pivotal point of the doctrines of women's subordination and male dominion?

huh? Can I have that in a non stero insturction format?

Ok sorry. How is this?

Do you believe that at creation God established a social order of man over woman. If you do, I would like to know which Scriptures you base this on. If you don

[OopsMartin]

Thank you for the clarification. I believe God established a social order, but not necessarliy was it established in creation. It became more clear in the New testament. Although at the fall God said that a womans desire would be for her husband and he would rule over her......that was part of the curse.

Ok, so in your understanding Gen. 3:16 was a curse upon women, that from then on husbands should rule over their wives. And is it your opinion that Christ's nailing the curses of the law to the cross, did not cover that. Do you also equate pain in child bearing as a curse that no woman can escape?

I'm just wondering exactly how you view that. And then later or tomorrow I will explain how I view this section of Scripture. And please do not think I'm telling you you have to believe as I do. I will just be explaining my view and why I think it is correct.

thanks for the dialogue.

[Openly Curious]

There seems to be an idea that in order for us to love each other, we must have equal authority. I dont get that?

I don't get that either because I love my Heavenly Father in heaven as much as I love Jesus and they are not equal but one as Christ sits on the right hand of the Father but they don't have the same seat. All I know if the home isn't working God's way that means there is division in the house and rebellion and probably alot of yelling and fighting going on as the two are fighting one another for power and dominance and don't understand marriage at all.

OC