Entertainment, An Evangelical Heresy

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Butero,

You've already completely stated your position is nothing but opinion by the below.

You cannot prove it is wrong. So, if you think it is, it's your opinion, nothing else.

Butero said

No, I cannot prove by the scriptures that there is anything wrong with using entertainment in evangelism...<snip>

Butero said

It is not proof of anything.

Again, your opinion. I believe seeing souls saved is a good indication that G-d is working.

If you want to argue round and round, go ahead. You can't prove a thing, you admitted it. So, as long as souls are saved and G-d is being glorified, that's a from me.

[Vickilynn]

Where does God say anything about entertainment?

Shalom Smalcald,

He doesn't, that's the point. It's not wrong because G-d doesn't say it's wrong.

I believe He is using all sorts of entertainment to bring His Word to the lost.

Why don't we simply stick with scripture as far as how we are to worship and come together as a congregation, certainly we have guidance in this area. I am pretty neutral on this topic actually I just think we should use scripture as our guide in this area is all.

Well, you can do what you choose. No one is stopping you.

We are not only talking about church service, but individual witnessing, missions groups, crusades all sorts of things.

Look at the evangelistic tools Billy Graham is using. As for church services, it's pretty silly to say that the Bible doesn't show us how to use entertainment that was not available back then. That's not a valid argument. There are LOTS of things the church uses that are not specifically addressed in Scripture. One must go by ways to determine if it is glorifying G-d.

BTW, if you haven't read back a few pages, what you've posted has already been addressed.

[Vickilynn]

Whether you want to admit it or not, you haven't proved that God is leading people to use entertainment to evangelise, so what you are saying is just your opinion as well and nothing more.

Shalom Butero,

Whatever. You are so silly.

G-d is working by saving souls. You have NOTHING on your side to prove it's not. Deal with it.

It's not just my opinion that hundreds of thousands of people are saved and touched by the Holy Spirit through these methods.

WHAT do you have to put up? Nothing but your opinion that you don't like it. So what? The Kingdom of G-d is more important.

[Vickilynn]

Whether you want to admit it or not, you haven't proved that God is leading people to use entertainment to evangelise, so what you are saying is just your opinion as well and nothing more.

Shalom Butero,

Whatever. You are so silly.

G-d is working by saving souls. You have NOTHING on your side to prove it's not. Deal with it.

It's not just my opinion that hundreds of thousands of people are saved and touched by the Holy Spirit through these methods.

WHAT do you have to put up? Nothing but your opinion that you don't like it. So what? The Kingdom of G-d is more important.

Rather than continuing down this pathway, because I see we are going around in circles, why don't you specifically tell me the types of methods God is using to reach the lost? What type of things do you find acceptable and good, and is there a point where you believe the church can cross the line and be doing something wrong in their zeal to reach people?

Shalom Butero,

The line is where it violates Scripture. Such as using something with nudity and profanity or using alcohol. Scripture must be the guideline.

G-d is using MANY means to reach the lost such as; drama, music, puppets, POWER TEAM, movies, all sort of things, I cannot list each and every one. And there are new ones every day, praise G-d! The criteria is that it first and foremost glorify G-d.

[Axxman]

Where does God say anything about entertainment?

Why don't we simply stick with scripture as far as how we are to worship and come together as a congregation, certainly we have guidance in this area. I am pretty neutral on this topic actually I just think we should use scripture as our guide in this area is all.

I think the word "entertainment" is being mis-used. My church is greatly entertaining...but that is not the intent of the church service. In every Sunday bulletin there are two business card sized "invitations" for people to invite others to the church services. The card is pretty nice with some kinda unique graphic...but otherwise it advertises nothing more than the Preachers topic and the service times. It doesn't tell you that you will hear a national recording artist leading music...or that you may see a professional athelete...or that you may see a gigantic multimedia presentation...or a play...or a dance troupe...or an award winning brass section. You invite people to hear God's word. However, of all the people I've invited, not one has ever said they didn't enjoy their experience. DO they all come back? I wish! The fact is...it doesn't matter how good your sermon, or how impressive the talent, or how entertaining...the message of the cross is still foolishness to those who are persishing.

If your church is entertaining to get people in the door...your priorities are messed up. However, if your church is simply entertaining because God has blessed it...that is another thing altogether.

I also think there is a misunderstanding between evangelism...and a gathering of believers for "church." EVERY member of the church is responsible for evangelizing and God will lead them in how to do that. The purpose of the church meeting is NOT evangelism. The church is the result of evangelism. As a former musician, I would evangelize all the time using music. I was able to put myself into inner-city situations as a musician that I would have had trouble entering as a speaker. I reckon there are not too many people that have evangelized in front of hundreds of Mexican mafia recruits, and its leadership. (Of course, that show ended abruptly when I prayed that God would set them free from the bondage of gangs...lol.) I can testify however, that some people I've evangelized to became members of their local church...and God used them for their purpose. It takes some nerve for a guy like Tozer (or anyone else) to act as though God doesn't give some people talents that He wishes for them to use in the process of evangelism...simply because it is not enjoyable to his ears.

Most Christian entertainers...and church performances...are not done to increase the membership...that sounds almost ridiculous. However, even I must admit that there are probably some churches out there who pratice that ridiculous idea. Again, I cannot stress enough...just because some churches or Christians do it wrong...doesn't mean that the entire concept is wrong.

[Smalcald]

Yes I can see your point Axman.

For me I have a very hard time condemning things which proclaim the Gospel even if they are not my style of worship, who am I to condemn others over issues of style? Maybe in this case it is best for me to keep my peace?

How about this, is it okay not to prefer that style of worship (multi-media, big musical productions and theatre), and yet not condemn it for others?

The only thing I think may not be scriptural is going to worship wanting a show, when in fact scriptural worship is participatory, and I realize in your church you are not doing that and I am sure in Vickilyn's church they are not doing that.

[Vickilynn]

How about this, is it okay not to prefer that style of worship (multi-media, big musical productions and theatre), and yet not condemn it for others?

Shalom Smalcald,

You GOT it!!! Yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

[Axxman]

Yes I can see your point Axman.

For me I have a very hard time condemning things which proclaim the Gospel even if they are not my style of worship, who am I to condemn others over issues of style? Maybe in this case it is best for me to keep my peace?

How about this, is it okay not to prefer that style of worship (multi-media, big musical productions and theatre), and yet not condemn it for others?

The only thing I think may not be scriptural is going to worship wanting a show, when in fact scriptural worship is participatory, and I realize in your church you are not doing that and I am sure in Vickilyn's church they are not doing that.

Sure its okay to not prefer the "big production" style...but thats just what it is...a style. For example, I know a great man of God that has a small country church. His church is decidely country...and I am not...lol. They do the organ/piano combo, and sing mostly old time religion music. It would be a horrible mistake to judge his church based on that, or the size of the youth group, or the advanced age of the congregation. My friend happens to be an Old Testament expert, who speaks and reads Hebrew fluently, and educates his flock on a weekly basis. His series of sermons on Ecclesiates were life changing for me.

I'm also just as certain that his congregation prefers their setting over the "big" church setting that my church provides. And that is okay since we are all all on the same team.

I wouldn't say I go to church 'wanting a show", but I would say that I am always excited to attend the SMX. I know what to expect in terms of worship, teaching, and fellowship.

I just think the topic got into a "my church vs. your church" vibe...when the topic was in regards to Tozer's comments. I think by reading most of the replies it seems that most people would agree that Tozer over-stepped his bounds a bit in condemning all christian entertainers.

[Openly Curious]

I notice that you keep calling souls being saved "fruit." I would just like to say all of the things that you are calling fruit is not fruit.

Shalom OC,

Ever heard of straining at gnats and swallowing camels?

This is a prime example.

So, you're gonna divert the thread to take me to task for using the word "fruit" in a way that you don't like?

We're talking about people's eternal souls here and you're posting about semantics. What a waste.

And in response to you saying my using the word fruit is wrong, you have missed the POINT of what I'm saying.

The FRUIT of our labors witnessing for Jesus is souls saved.

Matthew 9:36

37 Then he said to his disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; 38therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest."

Pretty easy to understand if one is open to hear what is being said of the Spirit.

Anyways just had a few comments take them or leave them.

Thank you for the choice. I'll leave them because they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Thanks anyway.

While it may seem to be a small thing to you "Words Have Meaning." You were saying that souls that are saved was "fruit."

I understand now you are saying they are the fruit of your labour but that was not simple to figure out based on your original wording. So if there was a misunderstanding the fault was your own.

I was not trying to divert the thread away from the original topic. But I was addressing something that directly related to the topic.

It's not enough to get people down at an altar and be drawn in by various things. Our commission is not only to get them saved but to make disciples out of them ones that really follow Jesus and turn around and take on the work of the ministry themselves not many will do this in their lives but some will because the cost is great. I question if real disciples are being made once there drawn into the church by gimmicks and such? Do they learn to be worldly or really sold out to God taking up their crosses daily and following him or perhaps left lukewarm with their focus on the wrong things in life? As it really does matter at the end of their life?

OC

[Vickilynn]

I think the word "entertainment" is being mis-used. My church is greatly entertaining...but that is not the intent of the church service. In every Sunday bulletin there are two business card sized "invitations" for people to invite others to the church services. The card is pretty nice with some kinda unique graphic...but otherwise it advertises nothing more than the Preachers topic and the service times. It doesn't tell you that you will hear a national recording artist leading music...or that you may see a professional athelete...or that you may see a gigantic multimedia presentation...or a play...or a dance troupe...or an award winning brass section. You invite people to hear God's word. However, of all the people I've invited, not one has ever said they didn't enjoy their experience. DO they all come back? I wish! The fact is...it doesn't matter how good your sermon, or how impressive the talent, or how entertaining...the message of the cross is still foolishness to those who are persishing.

If your church is entertaining to get people in the door...your priorities are messed up. However, if your church is simply entertaining because God has blessed it...that is another thing altogether.

I also think there is a misunderstanding between evangelism...and a gathering of believers for "church." EVERY member of the church is responsible for evangelizing and God will lead them in how to do that. The purpose of the church meeting is NOT evangelism. The church is the result of evangelism. As a former musician, I would evangelize all the time using music. I was able to put myself into inner-city situations as a musician that I would have had trouble entering as a speaker. I reckon there are not too many people that have evangelized in front of hundreds of Mexican mafia recruits, and its leadership. (Of course, that show ended abruptly when I prayed that God would set them free from the bondage of gangs...lol.) I can testify however, that some people I've evangelized to became members of their local church...and God used them for their purpose. It takes some nerve for a guy like Tozer (or anyone else) to act as though God doesn't give some people talents that He wishes for them to use in the process of evangelism...simply because it is not enjoyable to his ears.

Most Christian entertainers...and church performances...are not done to increase the membership...that sounds almost ridiculous. However, even I must admit that there are probably some churches out there who pratice that ridiculous idea. Again, I cannot stress enough...just because some churches or Christians do it wrong...doesn't mean that the entire concept is wrong.

Shalom Axxman,

Awesome post! You are so right on!

I agree with ALL you've said!!