In the beginning........

[nebula]

I have the same discussion with Nebula and my feeling is I am learning a lot from his questions.

I'm glad you are learning.

However, it appears as if you've made an error I frequently come upon....

I'm a her, not a his.

[nebula]

Offhand I would say that "everywhere" means "taking up all the space there is"

But why? Where does this definition of the word come from? For to do so, you would have to say that "everywhere" and "everything" are synonymous terms.

If God is everywhere but not in every place, it would mean that there are places where God isn't.

Those places (where God isn't) are "somewhere" as far as I understand the word

But there cannot be places where God isn't because that would mean God is NOT everywhere

Which brings me back to the question you said you'd chew on...

Is God in the heart of the non-believer?

Maybe I'll use maths style......

a "place" = a limited amount of existance area

"everywhere" = the whole group of "places".

"Somewhere" = a specific limited group of "places"

"Somewhere" = part of the group "everywhere" but not all of it.

"elsewhere" = "everywhere" minus "somewhere"

"somewhere" plus "elsewhere" equals "everywhere"

God is "everywhere" according to the scriptures I previously presented

"everywhere" is a group of "places" that includes all the "places" of existance

So God is taking up all the "places" there are or "taking up all the space there is"

OK, let's look at something.

God is spirit. Now what does that mean as far as His presence in the physical world? Does He make up the substance of the physical world? Or does He intersect the physical world (kind-of like these subatomic particles called muons that pass through everything - thus can fit "everywhere" in the world by your definition - but they are not a part of what they pass through, they just exist there)?

[hupo]

The way you are reacting to my proposals shows you are very unsure of your own faith, maybe you should think about that.

Actually, I am not unsure of my faith at all. My reaction to your proposals is based upon knowing the truth and being very sure of what I believe. I think it is the absolute assurance of faith that I possess that bothers you. I am not coming to you as someone who doesn't know the truth, but of someone who is completely assured of it. I know what the Bible says, because I study it. I know exactly what I believe and why. And I can see theological error, when it presents itself particuarly in your "God is everything" assertion.

What I'm getting from you is an attempt to shut me up with all this "dangerous" and "false" stuff.

Shut you up? So are we playing the martyr now? I am not trying to shut you up, but you are presenting as biblical truth a belief that God is everything, and there is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that supports that notion. You are making unfounded jump from everywhere to everything.

You know Shilo, ....once upon a time they didn't let the masses read the bible for fear they should read it wrong, do you think we should go back there?

Nonsense. Again, with the martyr card.

Where I stand, it is analagous to you thinking you can fly. If you were to stand on the top edge of a 6 six story building and are prepated to jump because you think you can fly. But along comes this poison pill named "Shiloh" who informs you that no, you cannot indeed fly. I don't stand there and entertain your reasons why you think you can fly. I happen to know for a fact, that a human being cannot fly, and you are not an exception to that rule. Of course, I burst your bubble in letting you know that if you jump, you will die, not fly. It isn't something you want to hear. You want to check it for yourself and I have no right to prevent you from doing whatever you feel is necessary to including jumping from a tall building to test your theory. So, you will either believe you can fly, or you will believe the truth. I can't shut you up, or stop you from believing what you want; it is your life.

It is the same here. The problem is not that I am being tyrannical or judgmental. I have not judged you or mistreated you at all. I am simply telling you the truth. Instead of actually refuting me, your only reaction to act as if my absolute assertion that God is NOT everything, is an attempt to shut you up. Please do not play this martyr game with me. Truth is truth, and you really need to find a competent pastor or Christian leader to disciple you.

Shilo

I'll spell it out for you, it is very simple...

If you want to tell me what you know as the truth, I am willing to listen and probably learn something

If all you intend to do is tell me how wrong I am, I am not interested

Can you be a witness without being a judge?

Your choice

Blessings anyway

[hupo]

Wonder Filled Family

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Psalms 133:1

Guess I'll Just Have To Wait In Line Behind Brother David And Brother Hupo And Brother Shiloh And....

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalms 27:4

His Ways

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9

Our Prayer

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Psalms 122:6

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Brother Joe

You are something else!!!

Blessings

[hupo]

I have the same discussion with Nebula and my feeling is I am learning a lot from his questions.

I'm glad you are learning.

However, it appears as if you've made an error I frequently come upon....

I'm a her, not a his.

Oh my!! I'm so sorry

Please forgive me

As for the issues involved and your questions, nothing changes. I still thank you for your educational questions and chalanges

Blessings

[hupo]

Offhand I would say that "everywhere" means "taking up all the space there is"

But why? Where does this definition of the word come from? For to do so, you would have to say that "everywhere" and "everything" are synonymous terms.

The definition is not scriptural (as far as I know). It is just my understanding of the term

Can we discuss this anyway or is it now a no-no?

In a sense I do see "everything" and "everywhere" as synonymous

If God is everywhere but not in every place, it would mean that there are places where God isn't.

Those places (where God isn't) are "somewhere" as far as I understand the word

But there cannot be places where God isn't because that would mean God is NOT everywhere

Which brings me back to the question you said you'd chew on...

Is God in the heart of the non-believer?

A million dollar question no doubt

Lets see..... A believer is one who believes in God

A non-believer is what? one who doesn't believe in God? or one who believes there is no God?

Actually it makes no difference here.... as far as the non-believer is concerned, there is no God in his heart.

But is that the truth? I don't know but whatever it is, it is not dependant on the non-believers "no faith".

I'm sorry to take a tangent to your question but I am probably not explaining myself very well...

The truth is the truth. We may or may not know what that truth is.

Whatever I say, write, think or otherwise express, is irrelevant to the Truth and has NO EFFECT WHAT-SO-EVER on it !!!

God does not change because I say one thing or the other.

It would seem logical that God would be in a non-believers heart even if he denies it. That seems to have been the case with Paul before he turned to Yeshua. So I would venture to say that God chooses to be (or not be) in someone's heart regardless of that person's faith.

Maybe I'll use maths style......

a "place" = a limited amount of existance area

"everywhere" = the whole group of "places".

"Somewhere" = a specific limited group of "places"

"Somewhere" = part of the group "everywhere" but not all of it.

"elsewhere" = "everywhere" minus "somewhere"

"somewhere" plus "elsewhere" equals "everywhere"

God is "everywhere" according to the scriptures I previously presented

"everywhere" is a group of "places" that includes all the "places" of existance

So God is taking up all the "places" there are or "taking up all the space there is"

OK, let's look at something.

God is spirit. Now what does that mean as far as His presence in the physical world? Does He make up the substance of the physical world? Or does He intersect the physical world (kind-of like these subatomic particles called muons that pass through everything - thus can fit "everywhere" in the world by your definition - but they are not a part of what they pass through, they just exist there)?

I'm not sure I understand this example. What I was saying is that God is everywhere and in everything and in fact IS everything. There is nothing else besides God! Everything else is there because our awareness was brought down to a level that we "forget" where we are and who we really are.

What we really are, is nothing! "WE" don't exist. we are part of that oneness called God.

Again, this is my mind talking, on a very limited logical level and has NO EFFECT WHAT-SO-EVER on THE TRUTH !!

Blessings in Him

[OopsMartin]

Which brings me back to the question you said you'd chew on...

Is God in the heart of the non-believer?

According to Scripture He is not..... but He is standing at the door knocking, hoping they will open the door and let Him in.

rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

I believe that God chases down the unbeliever hoping that he will stop running and allow His love to envelope, save and heal. I've always loved the poem The Hound of Heaven.

[hupo]

Well Nebula,

Your questions have had a telling effect.

I am very tired with this debate and naturally asked myself, why?

On one hand my proposals were all logical (to my mind of course). There is always a logical reason for whatever is going on or seems to be going on. Yet all this logical thinking is human mind based and therefore limited. I know my thinking is limited and I want to emphasize that whatever I have proposed, is not what I believe in. It is an attempt to understand the un-understandable reality of God. And again I am talking about human logical knowledge only.

You could see my proposals as an experiment. An experiment in logical thinking.

God is beyond that and I know it.

My proposals in the logical realm do not quite fit in with my "Knowledge" of God as is presented based on faith.

My Faith in God is only getting stronger as we discuss the various aspects of God, such as "God is everything and everywhere".

I am in no doubt as to God being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt about Yeshua's sacrifice so that I can live. I have no doubt as to Yeshua being the way...the Only way to the Father... the only way to salvation

I feel my logical experiment has run it's cause and don't see any reason to continue it.

I'm sorry I haven't clarified myself enough and as a result got some participants "worked up" about the topic.

My intention was not to cause a division or bad feelings in this community at Worthy.

I feel I might have done just that and truly apologize for it.

I guess I need to see when to get off and this is the time and place for it.

Worthy is a great place for studying God and His word.

I do ask that we be patient with those who think or believe differently than we do. In the long run it is well worth it and fits in with God's greater plan for us all

Blessings to all in Worthy

[nebula]

I'm a her, not a his.

Oh my!! I'm so sorry

Please forgive me

Not a problem. Like I said, it happens to me frequently.

Offhand I would say that "everywhere" means "taking up all the space there is"

But why? Where does this definition of the word come from? For to do so, you would have to say that "everywhere" and "everything" are synonymous terms.

The definition is not scriptural (as far as I know). It is just my understanding of the term

Can we discuss this anyway or is it now a no-no?

In a sense I do see "everything" and "everywhere" as synonymous

Yes, we can discuss this, and actually we need to discuss this.

If I am understanding your position correctly, you are basing your concept of God off of your understanding of "everywhere." Unfortunately, I have yet to see any verification or validation behind this definition - even in the conventional dictionary. So, what I see if a definition that not only is not Scriptural, it is not even scientific.

This is why I am pressing you on this definition. Yes, you did a good job presenting this circular argument, but unfortunatley, I still cannot come to terms with the beginning of the loop the whole argument is based upon.

What I see is you've taken "omnipresent" to mean "obni-object".

OK, let's look at something.

God is spirit. Now what does that mean as far as His presence in the physical world? Does He make up the substance of the physical world? Or does He intersect the physical world (kind-of like these subatomic particles called muons that pass through everything - thus can fit "everywhere" in the world by your definition - but they are not a part of what they pass through, they just exist there)?

I'm not sure I understand this example.

Is God a physical being or a spiritual being? Does not the Scripture say, "God is spirit"?

What is "spirit"?

And what is the relation between spiritual and physical?

**

I don't have time to delve into this more right now. But I would like to hear what you understand "spirit" to be.

[nebula]

Well Nebula,

Your questions have had a telling effect.

I am very tired with this debate and naturally asked myself, why?

On one hand my proposals were all logical (to my mind of course). There is always a logical reason for whatever is going on or seems to be going on. Yet all this logical thinking is human mind based and therefore limited. I know my thinking is limited and I want to emphasize that whatever I have proposed, is not what I believe in. It is an attempt to understand the un-understandable reality of God. And again I am talking about human logical knowledge only.

You could see my proposals as an experiment. An experiment in logical thinking.

God is beyond that and I know it.

My proposals in the logical realm do not quite fit in with my "Knowledge" of God as is presented based on faith.

I understand.

Your experiment wasn't a bad idea, actually.

In my post above, I pointed out where the fallicy was - your presentation of the premise. It was like saying A = C because B = C and therefore A = B. Or something like that.

Does that make sense what I'm saying?