Split - Sin and Salvation

[methinkshe]

Sin is a condition, it is not an action. Unles one can understand this basic precept, one will spend forever trying to discern whether this action or that action is or is not a sin. Jesus came to save us from an inherited-from-Adam sin nature, that can only p[roduce eveil acts, such that even our good deeds are as filthy rags to God. When one is born again of the spirit of God, then all deeds that result from that spiritual rebirth, i.e. Jesus in me, are inherently good and acceptable. All deeds that come from the flesh remain inherently sinful, whatever they are, including good works.

Ruth

I think sin is both a condition and an action. Humans have a sin nature, but commit sinful acts. Murder is sinful regardless of the attitude one has when they do it (as is adultery, gossip etc.)

Then may I ask you this: if you are truly born of the Spirit and it is not you who lives but Christ who lives in you, can you commit murder? And just supposing you do, is it Christ in you who commits that murder, or is it your sinful nature in Adam, that should be counted as dead because it died with Christ, that commits that murder?

Ruth

What if I think about committing a murder, or purpose to do so in my heart? The Lord tells us that we have already done so. A sin is committed every time we offend a brother or sister in the church.

Absolutely! So how are we to be saved from ourselves?

Ruth

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Then keep pedalling, bro, keep pedalling! As for me, my feet are off the pedals and Jesus is working in me to WILL and TO DO...

Ruth

[Ovedya]

Sin is a condition, it is not an action. Unles one can understand this basic precept, one will spend forever trying to discern whether this action or that action is or is not a sin. Jesus came to save us from an inherited-from-Adam sin nature, that can only p[roduce eveil acts, such that even our good deeds are as filthy rags to God. When one is born again of the spirit of God, then all deeds that result from that spiritual rebirth, i.e. Jesus in me, are inherently good and acceptable. All deeds that come from the flesh remain inherently sinful, whatever they are, including good works.

Ruth

I think sin is both a condition and an action. Humans have a sin nature, but commit sinful acts. Murder is sinful regardless of the attitude one has when they do it (as is adultery, gossip etc.)

Then may I ask you this: if you are truly born of the Spirit and it is not you who lives but Christ who lives in you, can you commit murder? And just supposing you do, is it Christ in you who commits that murder, or is it your sinful nature in Adam, that should be counted as dead because it died with Christ, that commits that murder?

Ruth

What if I think about committing a murder, or purpose to do so in my heart? The Lord tells us that we have already done so. A sin is committed every time we offend a brother or sister in the church.

Absolutely! So how are we to be saved from ourselves?

Ruth

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Couldn't have written it better myself.

[Ovedya]

Sin is a condition, it is not an action. Unles one can understand this basic precept, one will spend forever trying to discern whether this action or that action is or is not a sin. Jesus came to save us from an inherited-from-Adam sin nature, that can only p[roduce eveil acts, such that even our good deeds are as filthy rags to God. When one is born again of the spirit of God, then all deeds that result from that spiritual rebirth, i.e. Jesus in me, are inherently good and acceptable. All deeds that come from the flesh remain inherently sinful, whatever they are, including good works.

Ruth

I think sin is both a condition and an action. Humans have a sin nature, but commit sinful acts. Murder is sinful regardless of the attitude one has when they do it (as is adultery, gossip etc.)

Then may I ask you this: if you are truly born of the Spirit and it is not you who lives but Christ who lives in you, can you commit murder? And just supposing you do, is it Christ in you who commits that murder, or is it your sinful nature in Adam, that should be counted as dead because it died with Christ, that commits that murder?

Ruth

What if I think about committing a murder, or purpose to do so in my heart? The Lord tells us that we have already done so. A sin is committed every time we offend a brother or sister in the church.

Absolutely! So how are we to be saved from ourselves?

Ruth

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Then keep pedalling, bro, keep pedalling! As for me, my feet are off the pedals and Jesus is working in me to WILL and TO DO...

Ruth

I am puzzled at this response. Are you saying that Eric's answer is somehow wrong?

[OopsMartin]

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Agreed. This is why Scriptures say that we die daily and are saved daily. It is an ongoing process as our souls are able to handle the healing process. There are some things that God may need to wait until the person is able to handle the revelatory exposure, before He let's them know it is time to let go and choose better.

Thus

[7thseal]

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Amen, the same as we learn as a child in the flesh, we are born again as children of God and its a learning process all over again except with a perfect Father loving, teaching, helping us along the way as we grow in Christ.

[Guest Mitsukai]

First of all, I do not agree that sin is not an action. I also used to consider it only as a condition, but even the bible uses a plural form (ei. "sins") and often uses the word sin as a verb.

Leviticus 16.16 (KJV)

And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

This is clearly referring to their actions.

However, I will say that I still believe that only the condition is important, as the action of sinning is merely a symptom of the root problem. If we keep our focus on the prize (becoming more like Christ), the Holy Spirit's influence will produce fruit in our lives that will trump the nature of the flesh. But we are constantly under seige and it is nearly impossible for any man to be constantly aimed forward on the righteous path. (read Romans 7)

Now, I am under the opinion that EricH is correct in saying that we are still in the process of being saved, and I believe that even though there is assurance of salvation, one might not know if he is saved until the very end.

Phillipians 2.12 (KJV)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Matthew 10.22 (KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24.13 (KJV)

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13.13 (KJV)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Hebrews 3.14 (KJV)

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6.11 (KJV)

And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Even though some of those verses were the same quote from Christ, repeated, I wanted to show that the different authors reiterated it. Our salvation will be proven and determined by our perseverance. I do not believe that it is by our works that we our saved, but rather by the endurance of our trust in God's will and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I also do not believe that we can lose our salvation, but if we denounce him and turn away, then we were never saved in the first place.

I also agree with methinkshe in saying that the feet should be off the pedals, because even though we do need to struggle for our salvation, our struggle comes with an aim to give full control to God. He is the one who governs our sanctification, and it is when we try to take control that we are acting upon sinful nature.

John 3.30 (NIV)

He must become greater; I must become less.

Phillippians 1.6 (NIV)

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Mitsukai

[Guest shiloh357]

Sin is a condition, it is not an action. Unles one can understand this basic precept, one will spend forever trying to discern whether this action or that action is or is not a sin. Jesus came to save us from an inherited-from-Adam sin nature, that can only p[roduce eveil acts, such that even our good deeds are as filthy rags to God. When one is born again of the spirit of God, then all deeds that result from that spiritual rebirth, i.e. Jesus in me, are inherently good and acceptable. All deeds that come from the flesh remain inherently sinful, whatever they are, including good works.

Ruth

I think sin is both a condition and an action. Humans have a sin nature, but commit sinful acts. Murder is sinful regardless of the attitude one has when they do it (as is adultery, gossip etc.)

Then may I ask you this: if you are truly born of the Spirit and it is not you who lives but Christ who lives in you, can you commit murder? And just supposing you do, is it Christ in you who commits that murder, or is it your sinful nature in Adam, that should be counted as dead because it died with Christ, that commits that murder?

Ruth

What if I think about committing a murder, or purpose to do so in my heart? The Lord tells us that we have already done so. A sin is committed every time we offend a brother or sister in the church.

Absolutely! So how are we to be saved from ourselves?

Ruth

I believe that we are in the process of being saved from our sin natures. Slavation has 2 components. We are justified at the moment of salvation. All of our sins are forgiven and cleansed. We receive a new nature at the pojnt of salvation. The second portion of our slavation os ongoing. it is the battle between our new nature and the old one (sanctification). We are saved in this way as we yield to Jesus and become more and more like Him

Then keep pedalling, bro, keep pedalling! As for me, my feet are off the pedals and Jesus is working in me to WILL and TO DO...

Ruth

I think you misunderstand. EricH is not talking about earning salvation from sin. What you need realize that after one has been saved, we spend, or should spend the rest of our lives in the process of sancification. What EricH is referring to is the daily works we are created in Christ Jesus to do AFTER we get saved.

Our works do not save us but rather reveal the salvation we have already obtained by grace through faith. Our works are to be an outgrowth of salvation, and also part of the process of sancfication by which we are daily dying to old habits and ways of thinking/living. We are commanded to work and to good works. Jesus NEVER promises to do the works for us. He says, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your faither which is in heaven." We commanded to humble ourselves, we are commanded to be holy, we are commanded to give our bodies as living sacrifices, we are commanded to "put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ." If anyone thinks the Chrisitan life is not about works, they are wrong.

[Guest Mitsukai]

When I said that I do not believe we are saved by works, I wasn't accusing EricH of doing so... I was merely clarifying my stance. By saying that our salvation is proven through perseverance, one might take it that I meant our own works are the means by which we come to salvation.

I didn't want anyone to arrive at that conclusion, thus the explanation.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Mitsukai

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Even after we are saved we still have freewill. We choose the things that we do. We do not always choose the right thing. In salvation our free will is not taken away or compromised. We still have the choice of what we will or will not do.

[dugmando]

EricH,

You are so correct in what you posted

I know this is simple and may not make much sense to anyone.

But as I read your post and then the response I said to myself:

Self, what he said it's sort of like a ticket or voucher it good and has worth but it doesn't really shows it's true value until you cash it in.

May not make sense or may seem silly and if it does I apologize.

Doug-E

Edited July 10, 2007 by dugmando