Confused in Christ

[Ovedya]

Not really related to apologetics.

[Guest SpiritedDefence]

Phew, thought I'd lost it there! Is there any way to make sure you know when a discussion has had replies and stuf?? I thought I'd lost the topic there...

Anyway, thats really interesting nebula! Thanks! I guess its really outside the Bible stuff like this cause it doesn't go into the "technical" side of God's existence... but I know thinkers have talked about this before and still been Christians so it can't be tood bad

Well, if I knew what God knew and then decided to act differently than what God knew I would do, then I still made a choice. If I knew what God knew and decided I wanted to follow that choice anyway, then I still made a choice.

Ok, well I think the first bit isn't possible! If God knows everything AND is always right (duh) then you can't "decide to act differently than what God knew you would do". And the other way round you wouldn't know if you had genuine choice I guess. Here it seems like choice is kind of opposed to God - which is weird, but that just makes clear that, if I've understodd the first bit, then what you say can't be right...

But, of course, I don't know know what God knows, so I decide what I want to do base on other things.

But then the problem of whether if you knew what God knows then you would realise you actually weren't choosing is still there! Which is kind of what I was struggling with as my first attempt to think round these problems anyway!

The last bit of your post is really cool though! A little weird, but cool...

Well, let me ask this, if God knows what I will do, if I did not make the choice to do that, then what is it that I did? If our actions are not choices, then what are they?

I guess what you're saying is that an action is just the same thing as a choice! Which is a strange thing to think, but I don't know if its right! Coll idea though, cause it would sort of solve things I guess, but I think choice means something else. You know, like not every action we take is a choice. Plus, you know, the argument (according to my friends) is supposed to show whats wrong with the idea of God as knowing everything about our lives - so it kind of doesn't answer the question to say that actions that God doesn't know we do aren't possible - youre assuming that God exists, when thats what my problem is, showing that he does!

Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has any ideas, I thought maybe that God could still exist, but not know everything about our lives, so he would know all the different paths that our lives might take (all the trillions stretching out into the future, which is still pretty all powerful) but not be sure which ones we would take when we got there... I guess thats not what the Church said about God though... where in the Bible does it say God is all knowing?? Its just one of those things I kind of always assumed was there...

A still more than confused,

Spirited Defence

[Guest SpiritedDefence]

PS - do you like all the quotes and bold lettering I used? Its dead easy this stuff. If only the arguments were as easy...

Spirited Defence

[Adstar]

Nebula I loved your time machine out of time explanation I suppose one either gets this concept or they don't Some people just cannot get their minds around time.

If God knows the choices we will make, how could we ever choose differently to what God knows we will choose?

Your right we cannot choose differently to what God knows we will choose because God knows it and it is our free will choice that we will choose.

And if we can't, then aren't our lives on rails to heaven or hell, like the Calivinists (?) say?

The calvanists say that people are created by God to have eternal live and others are created by God to burn in the lake of fire for eternity. To calvanisim free will is just a human delusion. To a calvanist it is God that directs out choices in life. Please do not mistake what I have been putting forward for calvanisim it is not.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[nebula]

Dear Spirited -

Let me try this. I was watching a sci fi show called Babylon 5 (B-5 is a space station). In one of the episodes, the main character, Sheridan, jumped in time to the future. There, he discovered some things about the future. Just before he jumped back in time, the last thing his future wife, D'lenn, said to him was, "Don't go to [name of planet which I don't know how to spell]!" Several episodes later, the time came where he was offered to go to that planet. He recalled his trip to the future, and pondered what was spoken to him. He thought that maybe the bad situation he saw in the future may have been caused because he listened to what D'lenn had spoken to him and not gone to the planet, so he decided to go to the planet after all. As it turned out, going to the planet was what he had done which did solve the current problem, as he discovered about in the future, but likewise triggered the future problems. So, he knew the future, but he wasn't locked to it, yet his choice ended up being what had happened.

I guess you are thinking that if God knows the future, then the future is locked in stone? The problem is, what caused the future in the first place? If my future is a done deal in God's mind, what caused it to be "done" to begin with in God's knowledge?

[Guest dove2]

Spirited Defense:

God gives us two ways in life to choose. God knows which way we will choose because we have freewill. The thing is that if we listen to God, He will give us the correct direction to take. That gives us freewill.

Say a person wants a divorce for no good reason. God tells them not to get the divorce and they get it anyway. We have employed our freewill and we suffer the consequences. Had we listened to God then we would have done as He willed and reaped the harvest.

We can go with our own freewill or we can go with God's will. Yes, God does know how we will choose, but He still gives us a choice. He gives us the direction to take if we will take it.

Let me put it this way. God knows which direction we will take if we don't listen to Him. If we listen to God then we make the correct decision and if not then we make the wrong decision. Either way it is our choice if we will follow God or follow our own will.

For instance: It is God

[Guest SpiritedDefence]

Your right we cannot choose differently to what God knows we will choose because God knows it and it is our free will choice that we will choose.

If we cannot choose differently then its not free will or any kind of choice at all ! Duh... And to me, that sounds a lot like the Calvinist doctrine, at least as far as I can understand it from google pages...

I guess you are thinking that if God knows the future, then the future is locked in stone? The problem is, what caused the future in the first place? If my future is a done deal in God's mind, what caused it to be "done" to begin with in God's knowledge?

Thats really interesting! I guess it kind of seems to factor God in right from the start, so i don't know whether an unbeleiver would accept it (I will have to ask some ), but it kind of makes more sense than what other people were saying... It really seems to upset the notion of choice though to say it can exist outside of time in this way - isn't choice somehow dependent on the future not being known at all?

Also, does anyone know the Bible verse that shows that God has all knowledge? I was starting to read through the Bible, but I don't know how to search for specific verses...

Spirited Defence

[nebula]

isn't choice somehow dependent on the future not being known at all?

Why?

[Adstar]

If we cannot choose differently then its not free will or any kind of choice at all ! Duh...

I have tried to explain it as clearly as i can. i am sorry i have been inadequate in helping you.

isn't choice somehow dependent on the future not being known at all?

yes Why?

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Revelation 13:6-8

6Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world means He knew who would accept Him Before He created the world. This is clear In these two verses it is clear He knows those who will accept Him and those who will not, even before these events in Revelation 13:6-8 has happened.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Romans 11:33

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

[Matthitjah]

Hello Spirited,

If God knows the choices we will make, how could we ever choose differently to what God knows we will choose? And if we can't, then aren't our lives on rails to heaven or hell, like the Calivinists (?) say?

All were made for the Glory of God. Even those of their own free will who reject Him.

Ro