Women pastors

[Rumple]

[

I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them.

This is really a big problem in this thread. Is the issue whether or not a woman has a vibrant ministry that appears to be fruitful or is it following God's qualifications laid out in the Bible for offices in the church? Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. The issue is not whether or not they are good or poor pastors or whether a woman is an otherwise good pastor. This is not an exercise in pragmatism or what works.

sw

sw, if positions of authority were as clearly demonstrated as you say throughout this thread to everyone involved in this thread, it likely would have ended a while back. It continues probably because difference of opinion or doubt still exist here.

[OopsMartin]

Grudems study on authentein is flawed primarily because both he and Kostenberger come from a mindset that a hierarchal view of men and women is necessary. They cannot conceive of order without it. Thus just like the translator after the 1300's who changed the spelling of Junia to a male ending because such an idea of a female apostle was impossible, so Grudem and Kostenberger cannot believe of any situation where a female exercising authority in a church setting would be reasonable.

An interesting point about the use of authentein instead of exousia is that in all other places in scripture where "to exercise authority" is used , it is the Greek "exousia", NOT authentein. In fact, this word is used only once. It was not even a common word at the time of the epistle. If Paul had meant the usual meaning of "exercising authority" he would not have needed to reach for such an unusual word.

In fact it is of note that most all other older translations did NOT translate authentein as simple "exercise authority". The common translations from 2nd -4th cent. A.D., 4th-5th cent., the three 1500's Bibles and the 1611 KJV were: dominate, domineer over, usurp authority over, take authority over, dictate to, take over. Even many translations in the 1900's used those translations. The 1973 JBCerf (French Bible) translated it "lay down the law for".

Quote from Discovering Bible Equality, pg. 211

"There are good reasions for translating authentein this way. It cannot be stressed enough that in authentein Paul picked a term that occurs only here in the N.T. Its cognates are found merely twice elsewhere in the Greek Bible. In the Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 it is the noun authente (merderer) used with referent to indigenous people' practice of child sacrifice:

'Those (the Canaanites) who lived long ago in your holy land, you hated for their detestable practices, their works of sorcery and unholy rites

[Rumple]

The direct connection may be missing, but I see one even if you do not. I'll leave it be.

Shalom Rumple,

I'm sorry, but saying that women tended sheep (the animals) is not Biblical support for the theory that women should be pastors of people. You are reading something into the Scriptures that is simply not there for doctrine. It's a nice thought, but it's not correct exegesis.

Exegesis? This word has been shown to me before. No, I do not or my method is not.

I simply read the Bible and talk to God. Once in a while I am led to study a certain matter. Hopefully, most of the leading is by the Holy Ghost showing me the Way to more Truth.

Shalom Rumple,

Exegesis means to study the Bible correctly.

critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible.

Every person should study the Bible to know the truth and not read it to fit their own ideas. By saying that women should be ordained pastors because women tended sheep is not Biblical truth. IOW, if you say that, you are not interpreting the Scriptures correctly (exegesis) since the Bible does not say that.

I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them.

I do say that God is the one who calls people to be what He has for them. Does He call women to be in any of the five-fold ministry as listed in Eph 4:11? I believe so, but my belief is not set in concrete.

Am I misinterpreting the scriptures in any way? Without a doubt, but in this I am certainly not alone. I do not know a single person who is perfectly in God's will all of the time. And...like all of the rest I believe that I am right about certain things that I do or believe even though I know that some of them are wrong. Part of the reason I am here and have been in other Internet forums now and in the past to learn. The Holy Ghost leads us to Truth, but very often people are a conduit to such Truth.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Shalom Rumple,

I appreciate your gracious reply and your humble spirit in your post. Yes, we are all human and capable of misinterpreting the Scriptures. That is why we see so many "debates" in the Body. Each is making a stand on what they believe the Scriptures say, but they can't say the exact opposite with the same verse. Yet, some Christians read the Scriptures and see one thing and others can see the same verse and see something completely different.

The thing is, unless it is an area of salvation, it is simply areas where we will walk out what we believe the Scriptures are saying.

For me, I strongly believe that women should NOT be pastors, teachers or hold any position where there is authority over men. For others, they see it differently. For me, I will not go to a church where a woman holds a position of authority over men. For others, they have different views.

Rumple, we are ALL here to learn! No one has all truth and no one has arrived at perfection, certainly not me. So, I am right there with you, learning and praying and seeking G-d.

So, at the end of the day, we each love Jesus and iron sharpens iron. Yes?

Amen!

[Vickilynn]

And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example?

Shalom Rumple,

No. Jesus did not ordain women pastors.

Women who want to live like Jesus should follow His commands as well as His example. No one "just happens" to be a pastor Rumple. It is a serious thing. And something that the Scriptures do not support.

[HAZARD]

One can look at this a different way. There are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Scripture (1 Cor. 12:4-11). If one is filled with the holy spirit rather than only a measure, and not be able to teach, then which particular gift is teaching if mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:4-11?

1 The gift of the word of wisdom? Maybe!

2 The gift of the word of knowledge? Maybe!

3 the gift of faith, no!

4 the gift of healing? no!

5 The gift of working of miracles? no!

6The gift of prophecy? maybe!

7 The Gift of discerning of spirits? not likely!

8 The gift od divers kinds of tongues or languages? Not likely!

9 The gift of interpretation of tongues or languages? Not likely!

Which of these gifts are gifts of teaching?

Who can have some or all of the above gifts, men or women only?

Scripture teaches that every believer may have one or all of the above gifts as they covet them and seeks God for the anointing of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:8-31). That is every member of the body of Christ, male or female!

Now, what is the purpose of these gifts?

The purpose of these gifts is to enable all believers to do the works of CHRIST and to carry on the work that He began both to do AND TO TEACH (READ Acts 1:1-2, 12-15; 1 Cor 1:7; Rom. 12:3-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-31; 14:1-40; Heb. 2:3-4). "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; AND GREATER WORKS than these shall he do for I go to my Father (John 14:12).

God has set some in the Church, first apostles,secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miricals, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues . . . But covet earnestly the best gifts; and yet unto you a more excellent way . . . . Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts" (1 Cor. 12:28-30; 14:1).

Not one mention of gender in asking for and recieving any of the above gifts, or being limited in any of the works any believer can do, in fact Jesus says even better works than these, works which He did? we both, male and female can do all the works Jesus did and more than He did, and that includes teaching, for He was the greatest teacher of all, if we so covet the gifts and recieve them. Teaching has nothing to do with having authority over men. Teaching is teaching.

[irishcowboy]

Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word.

~ Regards, PA

actually, if that were true, there would be more "homosexuals" trying to pastor.....

there are several (denominations as some would say) that do ordain women and have not even remotely concidered those that are living in sin ( homosexuals for instance ) The Assemblies is one that has had women working in the ministry for a very long time, and yet, the women have to stand to the heavy standard of living an upright and blameless life, as their male counterparts do....

a person livng in sin is not living an upright nor a blameless life.....

a person can be innocent and not be blameless.... there is a differance....

blameless means there is no way anyone can point fingers... a person that is innocent can do things to attract undue, unwarrented attention and bad publicity.... ( such as going to a bar every day after work and not drinking anything but soda, the appearance is not blameless.... )

anyways, the 2 year thing is not correct....

mike

Actually, there are many denominations that have ordained women in pastoral and associated positions for at least a hundred years. I saw a list once. Long list. It included Quakers, Assembly of God, Church of God, Foursquare, Methodist and several others I don't recollect at the moment. In the 1800's when women fought for the right to vote and other privileges, along with the fight for the release of slaves, it did open more doors for women in the near future.

White males were the prejudicial preferreds of most of the world for many eons. We have the history of communism and the KKK's to remind us of that. You'd think by now that we would realize it is best if everyone earn their privileges and recognition by proving their worthiness instead of having select groups handed privileges they don't deserve.

At least you are now being honest. You are no longer trying to twist God's word on the subject to fit your personal agenda. You are now being honest enough to argue from the unbelieving world's perspective. And your prejudice against males is also coming through loud and clear. Women rulers in the world have not shown themselves to be any less oppressive than men so your reasoning there (nice KKK and communism examples) is exceedingly flawed.

sw

MOI? prejudiced against my own gender...... ahahahahahaha unbeLIEVable. hehehehehe

Let's just say that I'm am prejudiced against all negative prejudicial positions, no matter who they harm and who they show preferential treatment for precluding Biblical sinful behavior.

hehehehe that was a good one. talk about reaching.

And my personal "agenda" is God's Truths that set the captives free.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back.

sw

feminist denominations???

which ones have not allowed women to pastor now?

even the Baptist have, there are not many that have, but they have....

if you look at all the denominations, you will find that they all pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept and which parts to reject..... there is not a single denomination that has not rejected parts of the Word of God.....

one may say you can not have musical instruments in the service of God, another might say that speaking in tongues is no longer for today, yet another may say that only certain people can be pastors, and others say that anyone called can, another may put massive restrictions on people to keep them bound by rules rules and more rules..... another might say a person has to confess each and every sin before a man before they are forgiven, and they may have to do it on a regular basis... another says that communion is only for the "paperwork/registered" members and not open for the entire body of Christ.... another may even say that you are not saved unless you are baptised, another may not allow a person to join their fellowship unless they have been baptised into their denomination (even though they have already professed their faith and accepted Christ and have already been baptised....)

there are none that are perfect

those that accept women ministering will not be moved, and those that do not accept it will not be moved... not by man anyways....

there are women that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not.....

there are men that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not.....

my wife and me have modeled our work after another couple, for we were impressed by the way they allowed the Lord to work through them.... especially at alter calls.... she would take one side, and he would take the other side of the alter area.... no one was allowed to minister unless they were called upon and the women would be on one side, and the men on the other.... all the ministers/elders would be called to the alter area, but again, unless directed by either him or his wife, no one was to do anything....

you may think this is a bit rigged but, there were more workings happening then i have seen in other ways.... why???? well, you have some that will not be spiritually ready and will actually dampen the Spirits work..... the husband would move along the men and speak with each one, find what they were seeking, and call a peticular male ( or two ) to minister to that peticular man..... his wife would be doing the same with the ladies.... there might be a time also, when the husband would call upon his wife to come and assist him with a peticular situation, and also in the reverse..... she would call upon him to assist her with a situation.... it was not a freeforall.....

there have been times, i would not go to the alter to minister, but rather would stand back, and plead for those that were going to the alter, some times i would do nothing more then to walk and stand behind the person that the pastor was ministering to......

there were times that the pastor would send the alterworkers (and other ministers and elders ) to step back from the person(s) he was working with, for one reason or other....

am I for women ministers/pastors? or am I against them?

well,

it actually depends, if the governing authority says NO.... then i say they should not push the issue, but should be submissive to the governing authority.....

if the governing authority says YES, then i say allow them to be submissive to the governing authority...

as Christ said......

IF THEY ARE NOT AGAINST US, THEN THEY ARE FOR US....

as he spoke to His disciples when they rebuked others for casting out demons and healing in the Name if Christ and they were not walking with them, (or following along as they were )

are these women against Christ????

are these women preaching/teaching Christ????

if they are, they are not against Christ....

if an assistant pastor, is doing what he feels God wants, as he believes God is leading, but it goes against the head pastor, he should be submissive to the head pastor, or he will cause a division among the church and actually cause the chuch to split or even fall......

who is for Christ?

who is not?

even those TV evangelist, the ones tha tpeople jump on for not going to all the sick wards and healing everyone.... first off, it is not them that heal, and second, how do we know where God is leading them.... next why are we scoffing.... and who is placed in authroity over them????

who is responsible for all our leaders???? for all our pastors?????

GOD is......

those that say they only fall under the AUTHORITY of GOD, are in for a great fall, they are actually in rebellion against what the Lord has set before them.....

mike

[patricia1]

And we who are desiring to be like Him so that we can see Him as He is, if one of us happens to be a pastor of a flock of Jesus' people would he/she not be attempting to follow His example?

Shalom Rumple,

No. Jesus did not ordain women pastors.

Women who want to live like Jesus should follow His commands as well as His example. No one "just happens" to be a pastor Rumple. It is a serious thing. And something that the Scriptures do not support.

as a woman I have been Jesus' eyes,ears mouth, hands and so on being a conduit of His Grace and many blessings that are awaiting in the many vats in Heaven to be poured down here. I do not hav a Pastors heart...that is a trmendous heart filled witha anointint of royal parenthood over His people. As my pastor once told me with a laugh I would have no congregants. My answers would always be, was the premise of correction according to the scriptures done and nothing has changed throw 'em out yet if there is a problemwithinnorthorn new jersey or mid hudson I get calls. There is a time for tenderness and a time to be clear and focused. A little bit of arsenic in a bag of flour is not a good thing. I know a wonderful woman pastor. We have been friends for 20 yrs. She is 80 yrs old. When she walks into the room ths LOVE of JESUS permeatesthe room, as a shepherd she took care of all her sheep no matter what time of day

how many times they backslide and always seem to see what the Lord saw, This helped her never to give up on anybody.

Without woman the tabernacle would not be built. A woman can bang a nail. But how many men back then knew how to sew or die fabric.? Jesus did not say a woman cannot be a pastor and he said nothing about whether a woman can. But as I will say it again The Holy Spirit knows no Gender. Anyway what are men suppose to do? be pastors....work...teach at thats it in life? I think that is sexist! We have shared responsibility. I know a woman who had a tremendous preaching ministry. Her Husband besides other gifts was appointed to intercede and Birth. The Lord Jesus worked mighty things through her...Most likely due to her husband,being able to humble himself and obey God They were richly rewarded with multitudes of salvations that remained saved in Jesus name patrish

[st. Worm]

[

I do not say that women should be ordained or not ordained, Vickilynn. I am searching in this. I have only known a couple of women pastors. My knowledge of those was only very slight making it impossible to form any reasonable opinions about them and their respective ministries. On the other hand I have known many male pastors over the years and have sat under 8 different ones including my first a RC (Roman Catholic) priest. Two of the eight were really so out of line with God's will that He led me to leave their congregations because of them.

This is really a big problem in this thread. Is the issue whether or not a woman has a vibrant ministry that appears to be fruitful or is it following God's qualifications laid out in the Bible for offices in the church? Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread. The issue is not whether or not they are good or poor pastors or whether a woman is an otherwise good pastor. This is not an exercise in pragmatism or what works.

sw

sw, if positions of authority were as clearly demonstrated as you say throughout this thread to everyone involved in this thread, it likely would have ended a while back. It continues probably because difference of opinion or doubt still exist here.

No it continues because many love the world more than the Word.

sw

[st. Worm]

Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word.

~ Regards, PA

actually, if that were true, there would be more "homosexuals" trying to pastor.....

there are several (denominations as some would say) that do ordain women and have not even remotely concidered those that are living in sin ( homosexuals for instance ) The Assemblies is one that has had women working in the ministry for a very long time, and yet, the women have to stand to the heavy standard of living an upright and blameless life, as their male counterparts do....

a person livng in sin is not living an upright nor a blameless life.....

a person can be innocent and not be blameless.... there is a differance....

blameless means there is no way anyone can point fingers... a person that is innocent can do things to attract undue, unwarrented attention and bad publicity.... ( such as going to a bar every day after work and not drinking anything but soda, the appearance is not blameless.... )

anyways, the 2 year thing is not correct....

mike

Actually, there are many denominations that have ordained women in pastoral and associated positions for at least a hundred years. I saw a list once. Long list. It included Quakers, Assembly of God, Church of God, Foursquare, Methodist and several others I don't recollect at the moment. In the 1800's when women fought for the right to vote and other privileges, along with the fight for the release of slaves, it did open more doors for women in the near future.

White males were the prejudicial preferreds of most of the world for many eons. We have the history of communism and the KKK's to remind us of that. You'd think by now that we would realize it is best if everyone earn their privileges and recognition by proving their worthiness instead of having select groups handed privileges they don't deserve.

At least you are now being honest. You are no longer trying to twist God's word on the subject to fit your personal agenda. You are now being honest enough to argue from the unbelieving world's perspective. And your prejudice against males is also coming through loud and clear. Women rulers in the world have not shown themselves to be any less oppressive than men so your reasoning there (nice KKK and communism examples) is exceedingly flawed.

sw

MOI? prejudiced against my own gender...... ahahahahahaha unbeLIEVable. hehehehehe

Let's just say that I'm am prejudiced against all negative prejudicial positions, no matter who they harm and who they show preferential treatment for precluding Biblical sinful behavior.

hehehehe that was a good one. talk about reaching.

And my personal "agenda" is God's Truths that set the captives free.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back.

sw

feminist denominations???

which ones have not allowed women to pastor now?

even the Baptist have, there are not many that have, but they have....

if you look at all the denominations, you will find that they all pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept and which parts to reject..... there is not a single denomination that has not rejected parts of the Word of God.....

one may say you can not have musical instruments in the service of God, another might say that speaking in tongues is no longer for today, yet another may say that only certain people can be pastors, and others say that anyone called can, another may put massive restrictions on people to keep them bound by rules rules and more rules..... another might say a person has to confess each and every sin before a man before they are forgiven, and they may have to do it on a regular basis... another says that communion is only for the "paperwork/registered" members and not open for the entire body of Christ.... another may even say that you are not saved unless you are baptised, another may not allow a person to join their fellowship unless they have been baptised into their denomination (even though they have already professed their faith and accepted Christ and have already been baptised....)

there are none that are perfect

those that accept women ministering will not be moved, and those that do not accept it will not be moved... not by man anyways....

there are women that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not.....

there are men that i will listen to speak, and there are some that i will not.....

my wife and me have modeled our work after another couple, for we were impressed by the way they allowed the Lord to work through them.... especially at alter calls.... she would take one side, and he would take the other side of the alter area.... no one was allowed to minister unless they were called upon and the women would be on one side, and the men on the other.... all the ministers/elders would be called to the alter area, but again, unless directed by either him or his wife, no one was to do anything....

you may think this is a bit rigged but, there were more workings happening then i have seen in other ways.... why???? well, you have some that will not be spiritually ready and will actually dampen the Spirits work..... the husband would move along the men and speak with each one, find what they were seeking, and call a peticular male ( or two ) to minister to that peticular man..... his wife would be doing the same with the ladies.... there might be a time also, when the husband would call upon his wife to come and assist him with a peticular situation, and also in the reverse..... she would call upon him to assist her with a situation.... it was not a freeforall.....

there have been times, i would not go to the alter to minister, but rather would stand back, and plead for those that were going to the alter, some times i would do nothing more then to walk and stand behind the person that the pastor was ministering to......

there were times that the pastor would send the alterworkers (and other ministers and elders ) to step back from the person(s) he was working with, for one reason or other....

am I for women ministers/pastors? or am I against them?

well,

it actually depends, if the governing authority says NO.... then i say they should not push the issue, but should be submissive to the governing authority.....

if the governing authority says YES, then i say allow them to be submissive to the governing authority...

as Christ said......

IF THEY ARE NOT AGAINST US, THEN THEY ARE FOR US....

as he spoke to His disciples when they rebuked others for casting out demons and healing in the Name if Christ and they were not walking with them, (or following along as they were )

are these women against Christ????

are these women preaching/teaching Christ????

if they are, they are not against Christ....

if an assistant pastor, is doing what he feels God wants, as he believes God is leading, but it goes against the head pastor, he should be submissive to the head pastor, or he will cause a division among the church and actually cause the chuch to split or even fall......

who is for Christ?

who is not?

even those TV evangelist, the ones tha tpeople jump on for not going to all the sick wards and healing everyone.... first off, it is not them that heal, and second, how do we know where God is leading them.... next why are we scoffing.... and who is placed in authroity over them????

who is responsible for all our leaders???? for all our pastors?????

GOD is......

those that say they only fall under the AUTHORITY of GOD, are in for a great fall, they are actually in rebellion against what the Lord has set before them.....

mike

This is bogus. Many denominations still make every effort to follow God's Word and do not ordain women. No denomination or non-denomination is inerrant because sin taints us but those who have gone down the dark road of women's ordination have exhibited a complete disdain for God's word as they twist and torture it to justify their feminist agenda. All you have to do is follow this thread and see how they abuse the Bible to justify themselves. Its a scandal.

sw

[st. Worm]

Clearly positions of authority including that of pastor are limited to males and that has been demonstrated throughout the thread.

1 Timothy 3 isn't even talking about shepherds (pastors). Paul used different Greek words there. And in Ephesians 4 there are no limitations of the gifts placed on women.

Show my your resume concerning Greek language studies and explain why your conclusions differ from every credible theologian in church history on this. Oh of course, they are all sexists.

sw