Women pastors

[Ovedya]

Don't you find it telling though that Paul didn't conntect Adam being created first to authority? That is not what vv. 13 & 14 say. Those verses do not make such a link.

They absolutely do. The single word "for" connects verse 13 to verse 12.

I've not even begun to discuss the meaning of that unusual word translated 'authority'. I'm still at the link Paul makes between Adam having been created first and it wasn't with authority.

The issue of Adam's having been created first not only has to do with authority but especially with a woman being permitted to teach a man. Remember that there are two aspects two verse 12, not just one.

13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Where does Paul link authority, (or even responsibility over Eve, leadership or anything similar) to Adam being created first in those verses? He doesn't but rather he links something else. If you say Paul is linking his being created first to authority then you are adding to those verse of the Word. On the other hand it is VISIBLE what connection he is making.

Again, the word "for" is used. This is given to mean "this is the reason. I do not permit a man to teach or assert authority over a man...for..." This is not only an issue of authority but also of teaching. The man was not deceived. But the woman being greatly deceived.. Not only did the woman step out from under the man's authority and give heed to the serpent, she opened herself up to a speaking that was not her husband's.

[Vickilynn]

He died for those "sore thumbs", but He wants to hear from them, loudly! Personality traits have a tendency to allow us to fall into the false belief that it is okay if we worship quietly according to our "nature". It isn't okay.

Our born nature is to worship God with all we've got, in obedience, no matter what our "nature" argues. We will have to stand before Him one day and answer why we didn't praise Him with our all. What will we say? We were shy? That means embarrassed. What will God think of that? It is equal to shame. What does God's Word say about being ashamed? It could also be fear...fear of what? Fear of man? What does God say about fearing man?

Shalom FA,

We are to worship G-d "in Spirit and in truth" and for some that means sans the screaming, yelling, jumping, flouncing or anything else that glorifies the flesh. We are not commanded to praise Him loudly, but we can with all our hearts, albeit quietly.

Worshipping gently and quietly has nothing to do with fear or shame! That is a guilt trip that does not come from G-d.

It IS OK to worship G-d in quietness and skip all the outward displays that some find so distracting. We are to worship Him "in Spirit and in truth/" and NO ONE can dictate to another what that is.

Also, Ruth, if that were MY church, we'd be long gone. I find those displays you describe to be flesh and NOT glorifying G-d in any way shape or form.

[OopsMartin]

I currently attend a fellowship where men and women teach and pastor ( it's all that is available within reasonable travelling distance and even then it's 15 miles away.) Actually, women seem to do so more than the men. And that's one of the things I find disturbing. I look around and see receptive men and ejaculating women (spouting teaching) - and it doesn't work well. We have dancing where women of my age - 50 ++ a few years, put on their ballet shoes and attempt to float their abundant bodies before the congregation on tippy-toes with their scarves aloft and their skirts just about covering their wobbling flesh, which I find quite distracting. It's like when all the oldies get up and try and do a Mick Jagger dance at a wedding reception - faintly embarrassing! But that could just be me, I'm quite reserved. The men meanwhile sit quietly in their seats. The women pastors/teachers go for an emotional high, dancing and waving and holding hands, while the men embarrassedly feel a need to join in, and under the direction of a female leader, hug the person to their left or right, as directed. So last Sunday, me and the adjacent male kind of cringed and did as we were told - but we both felt uncomfortable. I would far sooner listen to a man authoritatively teaching God's Word and forget the emotionalism that women seem to find so essential to worship and the building of Christ's body on earth.

Ruth

That is some incredible gender stereotyping.

. I look around and see receptive men and ejaculating women (spouting teaching) - and it doesn't work well.

This floored me. Is that really what you think teaching is about?.... mental ejaculating. WOW!

I agree that abundant women (and men) need to keep themselves properly unexposed. However, as an aged who loves to dance I find your caricatures of us disturbing.

As for hugging our church gives respectable hugs or handshakes or both without any directions.

I suggest you get out of that church before your criticalness taints someone else. No one should go to a church that does not fit their personality, unless they are prepared to grow to a different level of spiritual fellowship.

[methinkshe]

Didn't King David dance about blowing kisses while worshiping God? Granted he was alone and not in a corporate setting...

And didn't Michal, his wife, take offence and remind him that he should be seemly?

Give me another verse from the Bible that speaks about dancing..........

Ruth

[Vickilynn]

Didn't King David dance about blowing kisses while worshiping God? Granted he was alone and not in a corporate setting...

Shalom,

Granted he was alone and not in a corporate setting...

Bingo!

And wasn't he also "uncovered" I ain't going there in public worship.

[Vickilynn]

Sorry, I do not get any of that from Scripture. I would not dance and shout and float about in my home - that is not my nature - so why should I do it in a public gathering such as church? Am I to become a different person, to leave all inhibitions at the church door and just let go and do that (well, copy that, to be honest, because I have no personal inclination) which I would not even do in my own home? The only time I have done that is under the influence of alcohol when all inhibitions were abandoned, of which I am mightily ashamed. Is not one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, self-control? Should I really lose all inhibitions in church and then call it worship?

Ruth

Shalom Ruth,

You are 100% correct from Scripture. The problem with some people is that they like to ADD to Scripture and then tell everyone else to abide by it. Ain't happening!

[firehill]

firehill:

Don't you find it telling though that Paul didn't conntect Adam being created first to authority? That is not what vv. 13 & 14 say. Those verses do not make such a link.

Ovedya:

They absolutely do. The single word "for" connects verse 13 to verse 12.

I'm not denying that 'for' connects v.12 to v.13 & 14. I'm not talking about that connection but rather the specific plain as day connection that Paul makes between Adam being formed first then Eve IN vv. 13 & 14. How can we understand the connection between v12 & 13 & 14 when we won't see the connection he makes between the order of creation in vv.13 & 14?

firehill:

I've not even begun to discuss the meaning of that unusual word translated 'authority'. I'm still at the link Paul makes between Adam having been created first and it wasn't with authority.

Ovedya:

The issue of Adam's having been created first not only has to do with authority but especially with a woman being permitted to teach a man. Remember that there are two aspects two verse 12, not just one.

Yes I know that there are two things that Paul is prohibiting 'a woman' from doing. Now if the issue of Adam having been created first had ANYTHING to do with authority then he would have SAID:

I do not allow a woman to teach or 'have authority over' 'a man' (I'll discuss the meaning of the word later) FOR Adam was created first then Eve and (THIS is where the link between Adam being created first comes in) Adam had authority over Eve. BUT that is not the link Paul states. He states something else.

13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

firehill:

Where does Paul link authority, (or even responsibility over Eve, leadership or anything similar) to Adam being created first in those verses? He doesn't but rather he links something else. If you say Paul is linking his being created first to authority then you are adding to those verse of the Word. On the other hand it is VISIBLE what connection he is making.

Ovedya:

Again, the word "for" is used. This is given to mean "this is the reason. I do not permit a man to teach or assert authority over a man...for..."

Yes, 'for' shows a link between v.12 to vv.13 & 14. Now the link IN vv. 13 & 14, the connection between v. 13 & v.14 is what I'm talking about.

This is not only an issue of authority but also of teaching. The man was not deceived. But the woman being greatly deceived.. Not only did the woman step out from under the man's authority and give heed to the serpent, she opened herself up to a speaking that was not her husband's.

You've still not answered my questions. How does Paul link v.13 TO v.14? What does he link Adam being created first TO? What does he link Eve being created after Adam TO?

You can go on all day about the woman stepping outside from under Adam's authority when the scriptures don't say so. Then you could also answer my questions.

[methinkshe]

I currently attend a fellowship where men and women teach and pastor ( it's all that is available within reasonable travelling distance and even then it's 15 miles away.) Actually, women seem to do so more than the men. And that's one of the things I find disturbing. I look around and see receptive men and ejaculating women (spouting teaching) - and it doesn't work well. We have dancing where women of my age - 50 ++ a few years, put on their ballet shoes and attempt to float their abundant bodies before the congregation on tippy-toes with their scarves aloft and their skirts just about covering their wobbling flesh, which I find quite distracting. It's like when all the oldies get up and try and do a Mick Jagger dance at a wedding reception - faintly embarrassing! But that could just be me, I'm quite reserved. The men meanwhile sit quietly in their seats. The women pastors/teachers go for an emotional high, dancing and waving and holding hands, while the men embarrassedly feel a need to join in, and under the direction of a female leader, hug the person to their left or right, as directed. So last Sunday, me and the adjacent male kind of cringed and did as we were told - but we both felt uncomfortable. I would far sooner listen to a man authoritatively teaching God's Word and forget the emotionalism that women seem to find so essential to worship and the building of Christ's body on earth.

Ruth

That is some incredible gender stereotyping.

. I look around and see receptive men and ejaculating women (spouting teaching) - and it doesn't work well.

This floored me. Is that really what you think teaching is about?.... mental ejaculating. WOW!

I agree that abundant women (and men) need to keep themselves properly unexposed. However, as an aged who loves to dance I find your caricatures of us disturbing.

As for hugging our church gives respectable hugs or handshakes or both without any directions.

I suggest you get out of that church before your criticalness taints someone else. No one should go to a church that does not fit their personality, unless they are prepared to grow to a different level of spiritual fellowship.

When one understands that all references to seed in the Bible are to do with multiplication, it is easy to understand why the Word of God is likened to seed in the parable of the sower and why Biblical teaching can metaphorically be likened to ejaculation of seed. And why there is good seed and bad seed, and why the seed of the Word should be disseminated by the man and received by the woman, and not vice versa.

Ruth

[OopsMartin]

You've still not answered my questions. How does Paul link v.13 TO v.14? What does he link Adam being created first TO? What does he link Eve being created after Adam TO?

To Adam NOT being deceived!

[OopsMartin]

When one understands that all references to seed in the Bible are to do with multiplication, it is easy to understand why the Word of God is likened to seed in the parable of the sower and why Biblical teaching can metaphorically be likened to ejaculation of seed. And why there is good seed and bad seed, and why the seed of the Word should be disseminated by the man and received by the woman, and not vice versa.

Ruth

I'm sorry but this is incredible reaching and stretching.

As a man I have to tell you that ejaculation is self gratifying when done alone. It's not about serving. Omigosh, and there is your idea that only men have "seed". I just cannot go there.

Please, let's just say it was an interesting idea but it went astray somewhere.