Women pastors

[LisabethforChrist]

Is the topic of women being pastors, elders, deacons or teachers something that is forbidden to be discussed on this board? I have done many searches and all the threads on this issue seem to have been closed for various reasons. I cannot believe that this is a topic that no one is interested in, especially by the number of posts in those closed threads. So what gives? If people are not able to discuss this issue calmly and lovingly then would that not be a reflection on the person themselves rather than the topic? I understand that any Christian discussion board would want to prevent profanity and abuse, but I cannot believe that any Christian would be in favor of the censorship of the discussion of ideas. If that it the case then I guess I will continue my journey in search of a Christian board which holds dear the concepts of free speech and thought.

I am new here and don't mind giving scripture for this topic. I am a woman, and I know the scripture tells me to be silent in the churches, If I have a question, I am to ask of my husband, and I do.

I Corinthians 14:34-35

34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

If a woman has no husband, then the pastor is her authority and she is to ask him in private.

Verse 35 tells us it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church, therefore, she cannot become a pastor or preacher, ect.

1 Timothy 2:11-12

11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This scripture also shows that a woman is to learn in silence in subjection to authority(husband, pastor, Christ). Also a woman must not teach the Word of God(pastor, preacher etc.), for if she does, she becomes the authority over men, and this is not allowed according to the Word of God as in 1 Timothy.

Blessings,

LisabethforChrist

Edited July 29, 2007 by LisabethforChrist

[larryt]

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14).

I found this comical. Sin entered the world through the male's rebellion so ordain them!

So now your mocking God's word.

Eh, I'm not the one claiming that Adam and Eve are the prototypical male and female. Nope not me. The bible doesn't either but if ya'll wanna be ridiculous about Eve being the prototypical female then the same must be true regarding Adam. Have it your way! This conclusion must be met if we are going to be consistent.

There is no such thing as a prototypical male or female. All sinned in Adam. And all are made alive in the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

Adam sinned willfully, Eve was deceived. God says that the man is the head of the family, and that the woman is to be in subjection to the man.

I know you posted more but let's stop right here. You wanna talk scripture with me then show me where it says that the husband is the head of the family. What you don't understand is that children cannot be the body of the husband the way that the wife is. In Eph there is a head/body metaphor. The husband is the head of the wife (not children) as Christ is the head of the church, his body. Christ has no children. He is not the head of his children because the church is his bride not children. We are God's children. (In Eph 5 The husband is told to love his wife as his own body). In the same way the husband is not the head of his children because they are not his body. There is a speacial relationship between Christ and the church and husbands and wives and children have no part of it. You need to get a grasp on Eph 5.

firehill, you make my point exatly. I made no mention of children but was in fact referring to the passage in Eph. that used the husband wife metaphor for describing the church. Eve was deceived and this shows why God disallows women from being pastors. They are more easily deceived. every church that I have been to that allows women pastors has major doctrinal errors. Men are not perfect but God chose to have men as pastors! and not women.

As individuals you are right, we are all the children of God if we are led by the Spirit. In the Church the Spirit also says that women are not to be pastors! Don't get angry with me. The Word is very clear on this matter and we should not even NEED to discuss it. You are not, nor can a woman fulfill the requirements set forth in 1Tim. and Titus. And women are expressly forbidden from authority and teaching positions over men.

Your argument is not with me it is with the Word.

LT

[firehill]

firehill, you make my point exatly. I made no mention of children but was in fact referring to the passage in Eph. that used the husband wife metaphor for describing the church.

You said that the husband is the head of the FAMILY. Family with children was what you were conveying, see:

Adam sinned willfully, Eve was deceived. God says that the man is the head of the family, and that the woman is to be in subjection to the man. In the Church the man is to be the pastor. He is to show a propensity to govern/shepherd the flock by the way he governs his home. The woman is never to be the head of the family. She cannot show by example how to shepherd the flock because she is not the head.

When you say 'He is to show a propensity to govern/shepherd the flock by the way he governs his home' the implication is family meaning wife and children. In which case by the way in, 1 Tim 3 there is no mention of the husband governing his wife!

Now I'm saying that the husband is ONLY the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church (not his children because we're God's children).

Eve was deceived and this shows why God disallows women from being pastors. They are more easily deceived.

Here the implication is that Eve is the prototype of all women. Therefore so is Adam. All males in leadership positions then will rebel. How can you miss this?

every church that I have been to that allows women pastors has major doctrinal errors. Men are not perfect but God chose to have men as pastors! and not women.

Paul begins 1 Tim 3 by addressing ANYONE NOT males.

In the Church the Spirit also says that women are not to be pastors!

Actualy the bible doesn't say that at all. That is your interpretation of what it does say.

Don't get angry with me. The Word is very clear on this matter and we should not even NEED to discuss it.

I'm not angry with you but I'm amazed at how you first say there is no prototypoe then turn around and say that all women are more easily deceived because of Eve.

You are not, nor can a woman fulfill the requirements set forth in 1Tim. and Titus. And women are expressly forbidden from authority and teaching positions over men.

No. Both passages can be broken down by looking at exactly what paul wrote. And paul didn't forbid 'women' but 'a woman' in a context of false teaching.

Your argument is not with me it is with the Word.

Can you find a scripture yet that says that the husband is the head of the family (wife and children)? You said that it is true. You're the one then who has an argument with the bible. Your argument is from silence.

[Vickilynn]

yup( . or the wife of one husband.....) so where do five fold minstry fit in. The pastor does it all. ?!

Shalom Patricia,

That's not what it says. It says the HUSBAND of one wife. We can't re-write Scripture to fit our theology, we must fit into G-d's theology.

[Vickilynn]

There is no such thing as a prototypical male or female. All sinned in Adam. And all are made alive in the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

Adam sinned willfully, Eve was deceived. God says that the man is the head of the family, and that the woman is to be in subjection to the man. In the Church the man is to be the pastor. He is to show a propensity to govern/shepherd the flock by the way he governs his home. The woman is never to be the head of the family. She cannot show by example how to shepherd the flock because she is not the head.

Women that decide they want to be pastors are in rebellion to the Word, they are not willing to submit themselves to the Word of God.

Scripture is plain. It directly says that women cannot be pastors.

LT

Shalom LT,

Excellent! Amen!!

[Vickilynn]

I am new here and don't mind giving scripture for this topic. I am a woman, and I know the scripture tells me to be silent in the churches, If I have a question, I am to ask of my husband, and I do.

I Corinthians 14:34-35

34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

If a woman has no husband, then the pastor is her authority and she is to ask him in private.

Verse 35 tells us it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church, therefore, she cannot become a pastor or preacher, ect.

1 Timothy 2:11-12

11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This scripture also shows that a woman is to learn in silence in subjection to authority(husband, pastor, Christ). Also a woman must not teach the Word of God(pastor, preacher etc.), for if she does, she becomes the authority over men, and this is not allowed according to the Word of God as in 1 Timothy.

Blessings,

LisabethforChrist

Shalom Lisabeth and welcome to Worthy!!

Well-said! Amen to all you said!

[OopsMartin]

Part of the problem here is that some are going by what others have told them to believe. They have not researched the Scriptures themselves. When people just accept what others say without doing as the Bereans and searching the Scriptures for themselves, they accept other

[st. Worm]

Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back.

sw

Well dude, I don't know any feminist denominations. There may be some masculinist denominations though, that would be churches that are hard lined patricarchal.

As for me, I'm a charismatic So. Baptist. Some of us ordain women and some of us don't. Most don't.

Weak men. LOL I've always thought the really weak men were the most threatened by women who are smart and skilled. Strong women don't threaten me.

Blaming men for the worlds problems. Hmmmm you mean that all our patriarchal societies with strong male leadership who warred against each other for who knows what reasons aren't responsible for the results of their strong male decisions? Come on. Of course men are primarily responsible for the leadership they exercise. When women exercise leadership they are responsible for the good and bad of it too. But we all know that know matter how many skilled and gifted female leaders there are, there will always be more male leaders than females. that means that males will always be primarily responsible for the ills of the world. Comes with the territory.

But really sw, let's knock off the personal attacks and get back to disagreeing about Bibilical interpretations. Calling me names just doesn't impress me nor does it make me question my years of research on the subject at hand.

No name calling here. But you are the one who wants to blame men for the worlds problems. As I said its a fact that women who have been political leaders can be just as cold and ruthless as any man. The problem is sin, not gender dude.

You want to buy into feminist propaganda, so be it.

As for feminists denominations I would include the Presby USA and the ELCA for sure. Its a tragedy what has happened to them since they began ordaining women in disregard for God's Word. Next up, homosexual ordination and the same poor arguments will be used to do that.

sw

There are no feminist denominations. Trying to negatively lable good Christians churches because of a few of their doctrines you don't like is not wise.

And as for men and leadership answer me this. Is a leader responsible for the effects of their leadership? Most would say yes. If 90 % of the world has male leaders, than male leaders are indeed responsible for 90% of the nations ills. Is Bush responsible for his bad decisions? Most would say yes. Then the man Bush is responsible for those bad decisions.

If it doesn't matter what gender they are, then why are we talking about how important gender is in leadership. I thought that the point was that only male leadership was worthy or capable according to a few people here. So, no I'm am not "blaming" men, but will certainly hold all leadership responsible for their bad decisions. And since of all leadership the world over, it is primarily men; then male leadership is primarily responsible for the ills of the world. If you cannot concede that men (and women) are responsible for what they do, then I'm worried for you.

You are joking right? Good Christian denominations do not ordain women. Nor do they ordain people of any gender who worship a feminine god called Sophia. Nor do they ordain anyone who does not believe in the resurrection of Christ. Therefore those are not "good Christian denominations".

Also men are ordained not because they are worthy as you say but because God has commanded it. And for the record I hold men in those feminist denominations responsible for what happened because they are the ones that opened the door for women to be ordained. They were weak and chose the world over God's Bible.

sw

Get a grip. Disagreeing on female leaders does not paint an entire denomination pink. Those INDIVIDUALS who worship a feminine god called Sophia are not true Christians. And I also would hold any leader male or female responsible for allowing such to derail a congregation.

They may not be Christians but they are officials in the Presby USA. All of this started when women were ordained. If you can't see that you are delusional.

sw

[larryt]

firehill, you make my point exatly. I made no mention of children but was in fact referring to the passage in Eph. that used the husband wife metaphor for describing the church.

You said that the husband is the head of the FAMILY. Family with children was what you were conveying, see:

Adam sinned willfully, Eve was deceived. God says that the man is the head of the family, and that the woman is to be in subjection to the man. In the Church the man is to be the pastor. He is to show a propensity to govern/shepherd the flock by the way he governs his home. The woman is never to be the head of the family. She cannot show by example how to shepherd the flock because she is not the head.

When you say 'He is to show a propensity to govern/shepherd the flock by the way he governs his home' the implication is family meaning wife and children. In which case by the way in, 1 Tim 3 there is no mention of the husband governing his wife!

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I though you knew the scriptures.

Now I'm saying that the husband is ONLY the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church (not his children because we're God's children).

See above.

Eve was deceived and this shows why God disallows women from being pastors. They are more easily deceived.

Here the implication is that Eve is the prototype of all women. Therefore so is Adam. All males in leadership positions then will rebel. How can you miss this?

Not a prototype, just a statement of the facts.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

every church that I have been to that allows women pastors has major doctrinal errors. Men are not perfect but God chose to have men as pastors! and not women.

Paul begins 1 Tim 3 by addressing ANYONE NOT males.

1Ti 3:1

[firehill]

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I though you knew the scriptures.

In 3:1 & 5 the Greek is tis which means 'anyone/someone' etc.

1The saying is trustworthy: If ANYONE aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if SOMEONE does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God