Do you have personal Christian Friends who are Gay?

[Redefine_Me]

I have been aquainted wirh every type of sinner you can name but I have never been friends with them, not since I became committed to the Lord. Read 2COR.6:14-18. Paul makes it fairly clear how we should seperate ourselves from known unsaved.

Sure we can witness to them, but should have nothing to do with them socially.

Let me ask. Would you befriend a serial killer or rapist, or paedaphile or the mafia or a common thief? They are all sinners too. I know I wouldn't.

I think what makes it delicate for us, as Christians, is that in the examples of serial killers, rapists, etc, society and society's morals also condemns these acts. For me, as a Christian in the workforce, it is a daily struggle to know where to draw the line. It takes constant prayer and communication with God for me to know how far to develop friendships with my co-workers who are gay. Are they nice, wonderful individuals - yes! And I really do like them and enjoy their company. If asked, I would (and have) told them my beliefs on God's direction about homosexuality. I do not believe that I would be glorifying God to not befriend and/or associate with a homosexual.

Their faith? I don't want to presume, but I can say they are not church attenders, do not speak of the Lord or outwardly give off a Christian presence. However, I do know that if asked if they were Christians, they would say yes. However, I would also say the same of the majority of my co-workers.

[Guest LadyC]

cajun, what makes a person a christian?

does it have anything to do with repentance?

Cajunboy::::Ma'am, the easiest way for me to relate to the first question is to say, "One who strives to be Like Christ." and YES! It has everything to do with repentance. But , I'm concerned about the one who "refuses" to repent. For those, I would not recommend one not stay in a friendship relationship too very long, unless you truly feel you can do some good and eventually turn that person over to Christ. Statistics are not very good for "Christian" recovery for the "gay" person. Most go back and forth in their relationship. the one thing I tell the ones that I have worked with is, "take confidence that one day you will be very old and perhaps without a partner and then you might only have God to depend on. Can you be sure HE will want you then, just because you have no one else and are almost finished up. That's kind of like the guy who I was working with for about a year, and he was babbling in homosexuality. His final comment to me before I decided to give Him to Jesus was, "That's o.k. just before I draw my last breath, I'll simply REPENT! My last words to him was, "And what if you can't get the words out of you mouth in time and you expire?..what then?

Blessings

Cajunboy

the reason i aasked the question was the way you worded the original question... do you have "christian" friends who are gay.

i like your answer here. a christian is someone who strives to be like Christ, and yes, it has everything to do with repentance. so taking that to its logical conclusion, is it possible to call an unrepentant sinner a christian?

i've had gay friends in my life. i don't currently have any gay friends, but i get along quite well with my gay neighbors. they're wonderful people. but they don't know Jesus. i guess i was just kinda trying to point out the oxymoron... there are no gay christians. there are plenty of christians who used to live a gay lifestyle, and plenty of christians still struggling to overcome homosexual desires, but if a homosexual is unrepentant, they aren't christians.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I have a couple of acquaintences who are gay, and I would go as far as to call them friends. However, none of them are Chrisitan, nor claim to be Christian.

If you want to know about gay Christianity though, I suggest you get a copy of the book "What some of you were", edited by Chris Keane, which is a series of testimonies written by gay Chrisitans, who acknowledge that their feelings are not godly, and attempt to live Christian lives without the sin of homosexuality. It's truly a great book to read, especially if you don't know any gay Christians (or gay people for that matter).

If you like, here's a link to an introductory chapter of the book - LINK HERE - from the Matthias Media website, just scroll down to the bottom where it says "Click Here"...... and click, I suppose. I've written out the first story for you to read here so you don't have to go anywhere to get it, but the link has information to a Preface, and the book itself will have more stories. The testimony's fairly long (approximately 4000 words), but it's worth every sentence, and I can't stress highly enough how valuable this book has been. Not all the stories are like this one though. This feller found himself "cured" of his homosexuality. Others in the book have said over and over again that they still struggle with their feelings. So without further ado, Christopher's Story:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Christopher’s Story

My introduction to homosexuality came about through someone in my church. I became a Christian when I was sixteen, and had been attending a local church since my conversion. I had a strong desire to know God. I loved the Bible and I was learning about prayer. I was growing in my relationship with God and it was all pretty exciting. Although I was attracted sexually to other men, it wasn’t something I was going to bring up at the Wednesday night prayer meeting.

An older man started attending our church. I had an instinct about this man, and it wasn’t long before we both knew we were attracted to each other, and a relationship began.

I knew enough to realise that, for me, Christianity and active homosexuality were not a compatible mix. I suppose there were three choices I could have made. Firstly, I could have fought the temptation and continued with Christianity. Or I could have gone into the relationship and continued to attend church. But my choice was to leave God and to enter into what I hoped would be a lifelong, faithful relationship.

The relationship ended after a few months, and some of the gay people I had met introduced me to the bar and pub scene which was part of the gay lifestyle in Sydney in the sixties.

At first my involvement in the gay lifestyle was exciting. I was young, many of the people were sophisticated and interesting, and I was receiving lots of attention from older men – attention I had never had from my father.

The lifestyle was also very seductive. The same-sex attraction I had been aware of before was now out in the open, and I was involved in a group where this was normal. Instead of feeling I had to hide my homosexuality, it was now a relief to be with this group where I fitted in because I was homosexual.

But the most important thin g for me was the possibility of finding the long-term faithful relationship I had always so desperately wanted. My desire was to meet “Mr. Right” and settle down where all my needs were going to be met by this “Prince Charming”.

I was part of the gay community for fifteen years, and during that time I had four relationships. These were not the loving, stable, monogamous, “happy-ever-after” relationships I had wanted. They wee dysfunctional, destructive and damaging. After the demise of my fourth relationship, I seriously began to question my involvement with homosexuality.

I knew that morally it was not right for me. I had never lost my awareness of God, and I knew the day would come when I would have to sort out my relationship with him.

I was now beginning to question seriously much of the gay propaganda which I had believed, especially the myth of the stable, faithful, long-term relationship. I was looking closely at many of the people with whom I mixed, and I was beginning to realise how seriously damaged some of them were. I was also realistic enough to know there was damage in my own life. I was well aware of the alarmingly high abuse of drugs and alcohol in the gay scene, and I had begun to abuse these substances myself. I was acutely conscious of how unhappy I was. Although I owned my own apartment, had an excellent job and as much money as I needed, when I took a good look at it, my life was a mess. I was now at the point of being completely disillusioned. It had taken me fifteen years to come to the realisation that homosexuality was not working for me, so I decide to get out.

The only positive thing I had learned from my experience was that I now knew beyond any shadow of doubt that there was nothing that lifestyle had to offer me.

The first thing I did after I left the gay community was to recommit my life to Jesus Christ. I gave him as much of myself as I could at first. Later, as my trust in him deepened, I gave him more. As far as I could at that time, I made a decision to trust him.

I wish I could say once I had done all of that I lived happily ever after, but I can’t. In leaving the homosexual community, I left an entire culture. For example, it had its own dress codes, vocabulary, entertainers, music, humour and morality. I went into the church community and it had its own culture, dress code, vocabulary, music and moral code. Obviously this was a huge adjustment, and there was a lot of changes and grief involved.

I was grieving over the loss of the lifestyle and some of the friends I had left. While I had no regrets about leaving the gay culture, I was missing some of the people I had been close to. I felt that if I had opened up about this at church, I probably would not have been understood.

There was also a big adjustment to the culture of the church. Everything was different and it took time to get used to the very different environment I had joined. I had come from the hectic, fast paced and at times bizarre homosexual culture, into the very sheltered and unworldly atmosphere of the church. Even getting used to the radically different way people expressed themselves was at times strange, and there were times when I felt we were speaking a different language. One day someone prayed for a couple who were going on holidays. They asked God for “journeying mercies” for this couple. What on earth were “\journeying mercies”? I wondered. The only thing I could think of was clean toilets on the way to wherever they were going.

I was now celibate after being sexually active fro many years, and I found that difficult at times. I was also attempting to make a new set of friends, as I’d cut my ties with all my former acquaintances. I was learning to relate to heterosexual men – I’d never had a problem relating to women – and at times just finding things I had in common with the men in the church was difficult, as I had never been interested in sport or any of what is traditionally regarded as ‘male interests’. There were other things going on at the time as well. I had never dealt with any of the past hurts in my life. Now I found God was raising issues I needed to give some attention to.

At about the age of three or four I had been abused by an uncle, and I had never dealt with the effects of that abuse. I was also still carrying a lot of hurts experienced in the four failed gay relationships, and I had never really dealt with the grief involved in these break-ups. I was slowly becoming aware of the emotional deprivation I had experienced as a child. I can never remember my father showing me any affection. He certainly never seemed interested in me, or spent any time with me. Consequently, learning about God’s fatherly love for me was very difficult as I had no experience to use as a model.

It would have been helpful at the time to have had someone to talk with about some of these things. Someone who knew how to listen, who was understanding and accepting. This would have reduced my isolation, speeded up my recovery and supported me in the process I was going through.

Over many years, I went on to deal with a whole lot of things, including what I now see as the roots of my homosexuality. These were my childhood abuse, the emotional detachment from my father; emotional deprivation, rejection, and external labelling or name-calling.

Labelling had been a very destructive thing for me, as I will explain. School was a lonely and painful time of my life. Although I had some friendships, there was a lot of name-calling or ‘labelling’ (poofter, pansy, queer), as I was effeminate and different from most of the other kids. This was not very surprising, seeing I had not had a healthy masculine role model in my family, and had modelled on my sisters. To deal with this labelling I had to be willing to forgive the people who had called me names. This was a process, and like any process, it took time.

I used many different means to deal with the things I believed God was showing me. I attended a lot of secular self-development groups. When I was eventually brave enough to confide in Christians, I had prayer ministry and also professional counselling. I spent hours reading and praying through the Bible, as well as any other books I thought would be helpful. Whatever was available, I used.

Over many years, as the roots of my homosexuality were dealt with thoroughly, and with God, I realised an amazing thing. I became aware that my sexual responses were changing.

I first became aware of this one day when I had decided to attend a service in another denomination. As I was waiting for the service to begin, I noticed a young woman sitting a couple of rows ahead of me. I sat there admiring her. She was a stunning-looking girl. Beautiful skin, lovely hair, and there was a purity about her that I had never seen in any of the men in the gay culture. As I sat staring at this young woman, I became aware that my response to her had quite a large sexual component to it.

I had to think through the ramifications of what had happened. One of the myths I had accepted was ‘once gay, always gay, you’re born that way’. My experience of responding to that girl in the church had proved that to be wrong! I was also aware that for a long time, I had not been attracted to men in a sexual way. I now had to admit to myself that m y sexuality was far from fixed – it was changing, and that was quite a revelation to me. I had to rethink all that I had accepted and believed up to that time. This was difficult, as there was no one I could talk to, nor were there any books that I was aware of that would have helped me to do this.

Also helpful in my process were my friendships with other Christian men. I spent time with these men, and learned to relate to them in ways that were healthy. We shared with each other, listened to each other and prayed together. Apart from friendship, these guys provided me with the good role models I needed, as my father hadn’t provided for me in that way. The relationships were firmly based on mutuality. None of these men treated me as their ‘project’. I would have found this extremely offensive, and no relationship would have been possible if they had attempted to make me a ‘good deed’. I wanted friendship and respect as a person; I did not want to be patronized and paraded as a ‘good work’.

It’s been a long, and at times very painful road of growth and change for me, but the blessings have far outweighed any pain I have experienced. One of the blessings has been a change in my sexual responses, and from that change has come a wonderful marriage.

The marriage came after the change in my sexuality, not before. It is very important that people realise that marriage will not change them. We all bring our emotional baggage and the damage that has caused into our marriages with us, and I am very grateful that the bulk of mine was well and truly dealt with before I married.

Well, that’s my story, but some of you may still ask, “what about other homosexuals? Is change really possible for them? And what exactly do you mean by ‘change’? Is everyone who deals with their same-sex desires going to end up with changed sexual responses and possibly married?”.

No, of course they’re not.

Joe Dallas is a man who has come out of homosexuality and he has worked in ex-gay ministry for many years. In his book Desires in Conflict, he addresses the person who struggles with unwanted homosexual desires and says:

If you are motivated and willing to exercise patience and discipline, you have good reason to be optimistic about change… Change does not occur quickly. In fact, it happens so gradually that you may hardly notice it at first… change occurs to different degrees among different people. Some claim complete conversion of sexual desire from homosexual to heterosexual. Others experience reduction, not absence, of homosexual attraction. Still others allow that, although they are no longer aroused by their own sex, they could backslide or regress to homosexual attractions.

There are voices within some of our churches that would opt for acceptance of homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle, and I’d like to comment on that. Some parts of the church say that we should bless those homosexuals who are in a loving faithful union.

John Stott, in his book New issues Facing Christians Today, says:

The concept of lifelong, quasi-marital fidelity in homosexual partnerships is largely a myth, a theoretical ideal which is contradicted by the facts. The truth is that gay relationships are characterized more by promiscuity than by fidelity (pp. 402).

A good example of this si found in Joseph Nicolosi’s book Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. He says:

…in 1984, McWhirter and Mattison published “The Male Couple”, an in-depth study designed to evaluate the quality and stability of long-term homosexual couplings. Their study was undertaken to disprove the reputation that male relationships do not last. The authors themselves are a homosexual couple, one a psychiatrist, the other a psychologist. After much searching they were able to locate 156 male couples in relationships that had lasted from 1 to 37 years. Two-thirds of the respondents had entered the relationship with either the implicit or explicit expectation of sexual fidelity. The results show that of those 156 couples, only seven had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. Furthermore, of these seven couples, none had been together more than five years. In other words, the researchers were unable to find a single male couple that was able to maintain sexual fidelity for more than five years.

The authors added: “The expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.”

After spending fifteen years in the lifestyle, my own experience confirms the findings of McWhirter and Mattison.

Just before I came out of homosexuality, a friend and I sat down one Saturday afternoon, and had a very sad but enlightening conversation. We came to the conclusion that we knew no one who was in a faithful relationship. The couples we knew had sex with others as well as their partners. Often the partners knew about the infidelity, but sometimes they didn’t. some of these couples had group sex or anonymous sex in public toilets or bathhouses. We could think of no one we knew who was in a faithful relationship. We had both been active homosexuals for fifteen years, and we came to the conclusion that afternoon that between us we had spent thirty years chasing something which just did not exist. That day was the beginning of the end of homosexuality for me.

Thoms Schmidt, author of Straight and Narrow, sums it up well when he says:

Promiscuity among homosexual men is not a mere stereotype, and it is not merely the majority experience – it is virtually the only experience… In short, there is practically no comparison possible to heterosexual marriage in terms of either fidelity or longevity. Tragically, lifelong faithfulness is almost non-existent in the homosexual experience.

As I have already said, this was my life experience for fifteen years.

I chose to leave the gay culture. There are many Christians who have chosen not to be involved in it at all.

For some of these people, celibacy will be their choice, as it is for many heterosexuals. Others will pursue a change in their sexual responses. Whatever they choose, their choice not to identify with, or to be a part of, the homosexual community needs to be respected and supported by the church.

How can churches make it easier for the Christians who struggle with same-sex desires but choose not to embrace a gay identity?

First, we need to realise that discussion of homosexuality often raises strong feelings. It is painful for those who are affected by it, it invokes anger for those who are offended by the ‘in your face’ attitude of the gay community, and in many cases it engenders fear and confusion for those who are uninformed.

I think it’s helpful if we try to see homosexuality as a two-sided coin.

On one side, we have the gay community, which includes those who have chosen homosexuality as their lifestyle. Some of these people are angry and militant. There are also many in the gay community who have been hurt by the church and feel that they have no place in the body of Christ. This belief would be enforced by the behaviour of some Christians, as well as what the media says about the church’s attitude to homosexuality.

On the other side of the coin, we have the many Christians who are struggling with an unwanted same-sex attraction, in an environment (the church) which, for the most part, doesn’t understand – and in some cases doesn’t want to understand – the condition or the process involved for those who want change.

I believe that if the church wants to be an effective and helpful part of the change process, there are many within it who need to deal with their fear of homosexuality, and educate themselves about the subject. Many Christians are confused and disgusted by homosexuality, and unfortunately there are many who have incorporated their prejudices into their theology.

In the preface of his book Same Sex Partnerships, John Stott says, ”is there a Christian way to combine biblical thinking about God’s intention for human sexuality with an equally biblical attitude of understanding, respect and support fro persons with a homosexual disposition?”

I believe there is.

So how do we go about it?

1 – Respect the authority of Scripture

We must not rewrite or water down the Scriptures. The Bible clearly states that heterosexuality is God’s intent for humanity. It presents all sexual behaviour outside of marriage as sin, and not God’s best for us. When I came out of the gay community, I was looking for truth and direction. My friends said I was a fool. My perception of the church at that time was that they could only put homosexual people down and had no idea of how to assist in the process of recovery. I found direction from the bible. IT was the Bible that gave me a true picture of God as a Father, and of his unconditional love for all his children, regardless of their struggles. I found through the Scriptures that God cared about me and loved me. I learned healthy boundaries for living, from reading the Bible. It was there that I learned the things I needed in order to function in a whole way. While the Bible didn’t ‘cure’ me, it gave me the grounding I needed when I moved forward to counselling.

I shudder to think what may have happened to me if I had gone to a counsellor (or to a church) who had not upheld the Scriptures and had affirmed me in my homosexuality. If that had happened I may well have been dead from AIDS now. Many of the people I knew when I was part of the gay community are now dead.

2 – We need to uphold one standard

I am constantly amazed at the double standard within the church. As Earl Wilson says in his book Counselling and Homosexuality:

We believe that lying is a sin, yet we reach out to liars. We believe that adultery is a sin and find compassion for the adulterer. We believe that the practice of homosexuality is a sin and close our doors to both the practicing homosexual and the person who is trying hard to obey God

He goes on to say, “We can’t help the hurting or bring life to those who need God when they only feel our rejection”.

Some people seem to put homosexuality in the “worst sin” category, even though the Bible doesn’t do that. Before we start judging the homosexual, we may need to look at our own lives. Do we watch R-rated movies? Do we fantasise over the girls (or the boys) in the office? Do we enjoy a little pornography? If we can say “yes” to these questions, do we really think our sin is more acceptable to God because it’s heterosexual? If there are people who do think that way, they have a very peculiar belief system, which is certainly not biblical.

3 – We must provide for people

With a little commonsense and thoughtfulness, any church can begin to help people who struggle in this area. Listening with sensitivity, providing educational opportunities or material, keeping a list of reliable Christian counsellors at hand for the people who may need them, and even providing a supportive setting for people in need, are all possible options.

It may mean reading and learning more about homosexuality, and asking God to help us to deal with any fears and prejudices we have about homosexuality. It may also mean telling people that jokes and put-downs about homosexuality are inappropriate.

During my man years of involvement in the church since I left the gay community, I have realised just how widespread the problem of homosexuality is within the Christian community. Sadly, I have also realised just how ill-equipped, and sometimes unwilling, the church is to deal with it. The ignorance about the subject is frightening. Take for example the man who was told that if he married, his homosexuality would disappear. Or the person who was told what was really needed was a simple deliverance from the ‘demon’ of homosexuality. Women have been told that if they looked more feminine, wore lipstick and dresses and found themselves a virile male (even though many have been sexually abused by men), they would not have a sexuality problem. But perhaps the award for absurdity should go to the person who said homosexuality was caused by people eating Kentucky Fried Chicken. This person believed it was the female hormones fed to the chickens that were the cause of homosexuality.

Let’s sum up the points that I have given you as a way forward for Christian churches.

1 – we need to respect the authority of scripture.

2 – we need to uphold one standard

3 – we need to provide for God’s people.

We need to beware of thinking we are better than the person who struggles with homosexuality. We’re not. Christianity is a great leveller, isn’t it? I’m ex-gay, but as Christians we are all ex-something.

Sy Rogers once said, “It’s not heterosexuality that gets us a ticket to heaven, it’s a relationship with Jesus”.

If you are struggling with homosexuality, I want to say this to you: There is hope and healing for you as you deal with your unwanted homosexual feelings. You are not a second-class Christian because you struggle with this. Jesus’ death was for you as well. You are not an unwanted child. God is not ashamed of you. He is your Father and longs to lavish his love, forgiveness and care on you.

If you are struggling with homosexuality or any other problem in your life, I would like to suggest to you that the best place to begin dealing with that problem is with Jesus. For me, it started with forgiveness and turning away from my past life. From there Jesus took me on a journey of change and healing, for which I will always be grateful.

Edited August 4, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[Guest Biblicist]

there are no gay christians

Would there be no liar Christians? What about gossiping Christians? Or possibly drunk Christians? No Christians would commit fornication.

Women who wear men's clothing, and visa versa, would not be Christians, since it too is an abomination. [Deuteronomy 22:5]

An unjust man is an abomination to the just; [Proverbs 29:27]

Lying lips are abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 12:22]

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. [Proverbs 6:16-19]

The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 15:26]

Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 16:5]

If you have found your personal sins among this list wouldn't that make you just as guilty a sinner as a homosexual? Are you still a Christian if you are guilty of struggling with these sins?

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [Matthew 7:2]

[Guest LadyC]

there are no gay christians

Would there be no liar Christians? What about gossiping Christians? Or possibly drunk Christians? No Christians would commit fornication.

Women who wear men's clothing, and visa versa, would not be Christians, since it too is an abomination. [Deuteronomy 22:5]

An unjust man is an abomination to the just; [Proverbs 29:27]

Lying lips are abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 12:22]

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. [Proverbs 6:16-19]

The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 15:26]

Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD [Proverbs 16:5]

If you have found your personal sins among this list wouldn't that make you just as guilty a sinner as a homosexual? Are you still a Christian if you are guilty of struggling with these sins?

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [Matthew 7:2]

bib, no offense, but if you're going to quote me, please do so in context.

there are no gay christians. there are plenty of christians who used to live a gay lifestyle, and plenty of christians still struggling to overcome homosexual desires, but if a homosexual is unrepentant, they aren't christians.

i stand by what i said.

[tsth]

In regard to bibs post, I would ask this:

Is there such a thing as a person who willfully sins, and one who resists?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Biblicist]

In regard to bibs post, I would ask this:

Is there such a thing as a person who willfully sins, and one who resists?

In His Love,

Suzanne

Well, since I can not know another's heart only my own I would have to say, for myself, yes. I do both. I do not see what that question has to do with my post though.

It is also possible to live in sin and have other Christians tell you it's OK. Look it up, Google it. There are churches out there, including the one that did Tammy Faye's memorial, that preach that the Gay lifestyle is acceptable to God. Would you say those people are not Christians? Can you know what is in their hearts?

It's a matter of judging. Only God can judge the heart and a person who willfully gossips on a regular basis is just as guilty as a homosexual, yet I would not think of calling them non-Christians.

I certainly hope that you don't think I am trying to make excuses for homosexuality. I am not. I am simply saying that one can not judge the heart of another, and to say that one can not be a Christian and sin is simply not Biblical.

[Guest Biblicist]

bib, no offense, but if you're going to quote me, please do so in context.

there are no gay christians. there are plenty of christians who used to live a gay lifestyle, and plenty of christians still struggling to overcome homosexual desires, but if a homosexual is unrepentant, they aren't christians.

i stand by what i said.

Sorry LadyC, I saw what you wrote and thought it would make a good object lesson. Didn't mean to use you.

What you said is very correct. Any unrepentant [sinner] person needs to throughly examine their salvation.

I might add that both my cousins were saved as little children and fell into the sin of homosexuality as adults. One has since repented and died of Aids. The other repented and is no longer practicing but I am sure it is a daily struggle for her. Unless you spend time with someone who has been through it and struggled with it, you can not understand their point of view. It is WRONG to judge them based on what you think you know about their life.

For my cousin to PRAY HE WOULD GET AIDS so he could be released from the struggle of homosexuality is something that everyone should take note of. He did in fact get AIDS and he died 15 years ago. Unless you know a Christian who struggles with it, you don't really have the right to judge them. It is not possible to know the torment they go through on a daily basis, unless you know them very well. That requires friendship.

[Guest LadyC]

i agree, the unrepentant sinner, regardless of what form of sin they practice, needs to examine their salvation.

i, too, had a cousin who died of aids. i don't know if he knew Jesus or not.... i was just a child. well, not by the time he died, but i was only a kid last time i saw him. i have fond memories of him, and always called him 'redbeard', but i was too young to understand that there were people in the world that didn't know Jesus... and too young to understand what homosexuality was when i knew him.

i have another cousin who openly lives a gay lifestyle... but i'm not even sure if i've ever met him. (i come from a gigantic family on my mother's side!)

i can't say i've ever known anyone personally who struggled with this sin... i've had many friends over the years, and a couple of roommates, who enjoyed their homosexual lifestyle. no struggle there.

but homosexual behaviour is just one of many sexual sins, and i'm well aware of the struggle to overcome sexual addiction... the self-loathing, the feelings of unworthiness that prevent one from crying out to God for help. and i've known people with other forms of addiction that had the exact same emotional struggle with whatever their sin was as i experienced. so i disagree that it is impossible for someone to understand their daily torment unless they know them well.

but i do think it is all too easy for us (speaking collectively of all christians, and in fact all humans) to look at their lives in the abstract, and not recognize that their struggle is the same as one we've been through, even if it's a different issue. and i really think that's the core of the "judge not lest you be judged" command. it's not that we are not avoid calling a spade a spade, it's that we need to call it a spade with the utmost compassion and love for the person who is still shoveling the manure.

anyway, apology accepted... you can use me (or my words) as an object lesson anytime you want, but do me a favor and let me know that's what you're doing next time!

[Guest Biblicist]

i agree, the unrepentant sinner, regardless of what form of sin they practice, needs to examine their salvation.

i, too, had a cousin who died of aids. i don't know if he knew Jesus or not.... i was just a child. well, not by the time he died, but i was only a kid last time i saw him. i have fond memories of him, and always called him 'redbeard', but i was too young to understand that there were people in the world that didn't know Jesus... and too young to understand what homosexuality was when i knew him.

i have another cousin who openly lives a gay lifestyle... but i'm not even sure if i've ever met him. (i come from a gigantic family on my mother's side!)

i can't say i've ever known anyone personally who struggled with this sin... i've had many friends over the years, and a couple of roommates, who enjoyed their homosexual lifestyle. no struggle there.

but homosexual behaviour is just one of many sexual sins, and i'm well aware of the struggle to overcome sexual addiction... the self-loathing, the feelings of unworthiness that prevent one from crying out to God for help. and i've known people with other forms of addiction that had the exact same emotional struggle with whatever their sin was as i experienced. so i disagree that it is impossible for someone to understand their daily torment unless they know them well.

but i do think it is all too easy for us (speaking collectively of all christians, and in fact all humans) to look at their lives in the abstract, and not recognize that their struggle is the same as one we've been through, even if it's a different issue. and i really think that's the core of the "judge not lest you be judged" command. it's not that we are not avoid calling a spade a spade, it's that we need to call it a spade with the utmost compassion and love for the person who is still shoveling the manure.

anyway, apology accepted... you can use me (or my words) as an object lesson anytime you want, but do me a favor and let me know that's what you're doing next time!

Since I have never struggled with a sin of that type, I don't really understand their torment. I have torments of my own but nothing of that magnitude.

I also have a strong support system which people of sexual sins seem to lack, made painfully obvious by the lack of Christians with Gay friends.

I can cry to my friends about the sins in my life because they are not going to judge me about pride, or gossip, or anger, or not reading God's word regularly enough, or not praying daily. "Oh, everyone struggles with that. . . " But if I were to say I was struggling with a sexual sin on a daily basis it is more than likely that they would turn their backs on me and begin to judge.

As you can plainly see, there are people who will automatically say, "One can not be a Christian and be homosexual."

Isn't that sad?