Is Salvation Predestined??

[Russell]

Yes, I believe it is a paradox of sorts.  But, a trap for those who will get caught up in the debate.  To me it seems as a diversion tactic, for the whole of the matter is this: 

That we are all SINNERS and must repent of that sin, whether we believe we are saved or not.  We must repent and believe on Jesus Christ and be saved.....period.  Whether we agree with Calvin or not, is beside the point.  Whether we believe in election or not, is beside the point.  It still will always come down to the fact that we are sinners and must repent and believe in the saving grace and power of Jesus Christ, to deliver us, no matter who we are.

In His Love,

Suzanne

No one disagrees with this Suzanne.

However there are some of us who have enquiring minds and want to understand more about the things of God and his ways and His mind. He made us this way...but when we seek to understand His mind we hit an unspeakable depth that cannot be reached...this is one of them..election/predestined to salvation and freewill...How can both be right and yet both seem to be.

Praise YHWH.

We worship you LORD. :il:

[tsth]

Believe me Russell,

I DO understand, really I do. I'm just saying that after YEARS of debate, I can honestly tell you that it will not be answered, and can end up only fostering contention. I'm not saying you can't debate it, and frankly it might lead you into deeper Bible study in so doing, (that's always a good thing), but you will not come to an answer that will be the defining moment on a debate forum. I have a friend right now, who just keeps sending me Scripture after Scripture on why he believes on a particular stance. He dropped out of church, searching now for one that believes in what he believes, and has lost fellowship with many brothers and sisters, who loved him dearly, because he became consumed with the "debate" and belief, when in Truth, it is not relevant. It will not be answered until we reach the Kingdom, and frankly it is serving this friend no purpose. He's losing focus of the fact that he just needs to understand the Truth about sin, and needs to follow Jesus. He's strung up in the argument rather than the outcome, which needs to be salvation through Jesus Christ. The "HOW" question will be answered, but I don't think we'll be the one's to answer it, no matter how much we debate.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Work in Progress]

Amen Steve and Suzanne.

I do think it important, though, to know WHAT you believe and WHY. At the least, it will make your salvation all the more precious to you. The two different portrayals of our God are VERY different and to a Calvanist, to hear that God 'couldn't' accomplish His plan, or is defeated by mere man in any way (i.e - one could 'lose their salvation') strikes a very insulting blow. I'm sure both sides are very protective of 'their' God and how He is portrayed, so it can get emotional and tense.

But, I agree with you that the most important thing is for people to hear the Word of God and receive eternal life. Amen. It's just not as simple as it's the only thing.

[tsth]

Could it be that yet again we have a paradox?

Both divine election and free will are true.

How can this be?

I don't know.

[salt and light]

I don't believe in the total depravity of man, because John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light,which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world." God elected everyone to be saved,but of course,due to unbelief or stubborness,many will not get saved. The "elect" in the new testament is everybody thats in Christ,and remember,God wants everybody to be part of the elect. God is not willing that ANY

should perish,but that ALL should come to repentance as stated in 2Peter 3:9. No one deserves heaven more than the next person. We were all guilty before God and needed a Saviour,and Jesus went to Calvary to die,because, "For God so loved the world {everybody},that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever {everybody is a whosoever} believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life." {John 3:16}. God is not a respector of persons anyway as it says in Romans 2:11,so He won't choose to save one and not the other.

[Work in Progress]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and beliefs and interpretations of Scripture. They are not the opinions, beliefs and interpretations of many though.

I don't believe in the total depravity of man

Not being smart, but you needn't have said anything after that sentence. If one does not recognize the nature of man apart from God, understanding the rest of the message is fruitless. Man's condition when he is apart from God is the basis of the entire message of Salvation.

[salt and light]

work in progress,

I do understand the nature of man apart from God,but read John 1:9. My opinion doesn't count, I'm using God's opinion.

[Guest mcm42]

God is not a respector of persons anyway as it says in Romans 2:11,so He won't choose to save one and not the other.

How do you reconcile Romans 9 when God's Election of Jacob and Esau before they had done any good or evil? Here he very clearly chooses to give a blessing to one person and not the other.

Also it says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and compassion on whom I have compassion."

If we are all sinful before God, and none of us chooses God (Romans 3) and we are all condemned through the sin of adam (Romans 5), how else, other than God's choosing are we to come to christ?

Man can not choose God prior to God choosing him.

[Work in Progress]

I do understand the nature of man apart from God

If you "don't believe in" total depravity, then no, you don't understand the true condition of natural born man. How you can "not believe" something that Scripture says, is something I don't understand. Natural born man is dead. Not asleep, dead. Scripture says he is unable to do anything apart from God. He is totally depraved and deserving of, and going to, hell.

I'm using God's opinion.

LOL! I would be very careful with that.

This really will go no where. It's all been said. Nothing new can be said. I understand the Scriptures the way I understand them and "know" without a doubt what they say. Just as you "know" without a doubt what they say.

I'm happy to leave it at that.

[salt and light]

work in progress,

OK,we'll leave it at that,but ask yourself, what does John 1:9 mean?