Is Salvation Predestined??

[eric]

Thanks WIP, I guess I'm a bit like sis Cats, sometimes I get a little bit bewidered. You read in John where it God so loved the world and then you read in Romans that God hated Esau. Oh well at least it keeps me in the Word.

blessings.

eric

[Catsmeow]

Eric: It kinda blows my mind....I can't seem to reconcile the two...

[Guest fishingpenguin]

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

God hasn't chosen a select few, instead he is waiting patiently, in the ohpe that everyone will come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, he wouldn't just pick and choose who gets to go to heaven, and he wouldn't be waiting around for people to come to repentance.

Look at Eph 1:3-14

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessin in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment- to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for thepraise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory."

Notice how many times Paul uses the phrase 'in him' or 'in Christ' and 'through Christ'. We are predestined, through Christ. Christ was predestined to come and live a perfect life, and now everyone who is in Christ (Gal 3:26 tells us how we become clothed in Christ) shares in Christ's predestination.

Now for Romans 9. A hard passage of scripture, definitely, but make sure you take it in context. Why is Paul writing this? Look carefully at verses 30-33. Now relate tihs back to verses 1-9. What was the problem Paul was addressing? For years, the Jews had been following the Old Law and had the privelege of being God's chosen people. All of a sudden, the Old Law is not longer followed and the Gentiles are given the same privelege of being God's sons that the Jews had. Therefore, the jews felt it was unfair for the Gentiles to have salvation since the Jews had been following God's law for all those years (although their record really isn't that great.) This is why Paul says in verse 18 "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and hardens whom he wants to harden." and in verse 15 "I will have mercy on whom i have mercy, and i will have compassion on whom i have compassion." Pauls point is not that God picks and chooses who is saved, but that the Jews have no right to question God's gift of salvation to the Gentiles.

Well, I hope that helps. Any questions?

[Work in Progress]

Eric, I definately think that this is the most 'bewildering' doctrine we deal with.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Then therefore, since some have perished, that makes God and His plan a failure, right? Not my God.

God hasn't chosen a select few, instead he is waiting patiently, in the ohpe that everyone will come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, he wouldn't just pick and choose who gets to go to heaven, and he wouldn't be waiting around for people to come to repentance.

Our God is not a defeated God, wringing His hands, shaking his head waiting and wondering and begging people to come to Him.

but make sure you take it in context.

I have, so have all the others who hold the Calvanist view of Scripture, but more importantly have taken the entire Word in context, and the entire Word is the picture of God's plan - including that He chose from the beginning who would be His.

Please understand that your verses are all verses that all Calvanists have heard before. I doubt that anyone of either "side" will change their mind.

The bottom line, as I see it, is how we view the Almighty Sovereign God. Subject to man, or subject only to Himself?

[eric]

Thanks Fishing, well it's kind of helps, as the scrips you quoted are not unfamiliar to me but my memory was severely jogged when the verses in Romans concerning Jacob and Esau surfaced again.

Now we know Jacob became Israel and Esau became Edom and we know from Jeremiah and Obadiah that Edom got his beans and was entirely wiped off the face of the earth.

So we know that God hated Esau, but the biggie. Did God have Esau"s destruction planned before everything existed, as predestination suggests, or Did He wait, taking in to account He had to make Rebecca fertile (pardon the phrase) before the sons could be born in the first place.- which I suppose was also predestinated.

Gets confusin dont it.

blessings.

eric.

[eric]

Thank you too WIP, our posts are getting crossed here,but I see what you are saying. So all I can say in conclusion is that all I know is by grace I have saved through faith, but I know some dyed-in-the-wool atheists who aren't and probably will never be.

blessings.

eric.

[His son]

At that point, their eyes are opened and they can not refuse the call of God. Salvation is 100% GOD and to claim that man has any part in it is, IMO, not only unBiblical, but an insult to the creator of the perfect plan. Man is fallible, God is not. His divine plan for His creation is not either.

To say that man can not refuse the call of God is calling God a liar. He has told us in every imanginable way that predestination is a result of His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. I'm glad that you said in your opinion, but I do pray that you will burn up all the writtings of men that proclaim this false doctrine and read nothing but The Bible. You my friend are doing what you claim other are doing.

[eric]

At that point, their eyes are opened and they can not refuse the call of God. Salvation is 100% GOD and to claim that man has any part in it is, IMO, not only unBiblical, but an insult to the creator of the perfect plan. Man is fallible, God is not. His divine plan for His creation is not either.

To say that man can not refuse the call of God is calling God a liar. He has told us in every imanginable way that predestination is a result of His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. I'm glad that you said in your opinion, but I do pray that you will burn up all the writtings of men that proclaim this false doctrine and read nothing but The Bible. You my friend are doing what you claim other are doing.

His son.

To whom is this post directed?

[Russell]

Brothers and Sisters,

We have many questions for our Maker when we go to meet Him!

Predestined to salvation by God's foreknowledge of our choices or Predestined to salvation by God or

Salvation by our own choice? ...are but one of these.

One thing is for sure our Maker sees the end before the beginning. Prophecy is a witness to this. His Word does not return to Him unfulfilled and there is no one that can alter His will... nor anything impossible for Him.

We are left trying to come to a complete understanding of His will. Every time we look into the mind of God and seek to understand Him... in depth, we come away bewildered, for how can we hope to understand a Spiritual Being... our Creator no less... who had no beginning...has always existed...where time is meaningless.

Yet, He cares for each and every one intimately... we can all come to Him and seek forgiveness. My life is important to me as are 6 billion others to them...and He can be intimate to all of these... at any one time...truly amazing.

Praise God...Praise His Holy Name... YHWH

PS It is good for the saints to seek to understand better and share their experiences...we will have an eternity to understand Him...I believe we will need it.

Blessings

[Work in Progress]

Eric, his first paragraph is a quote of my words; he is directing his comment to me.

To say that man can not refuse the call of God is calling God a liar.

Well, that is where we differ. Because I, and many, believe that to claim the perfect plan of God, when offered, can be refused, is to call the Almighty a failure.

He has told us in every imanginable way that predestination is a result of His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. I'm glad that you said in your opinion, but I do pray that you will burn up all the writtings of men that proclaim this false doctrine and read nothing but The Bible. You my friend are doing what you claim other are doing.

I will forgive you for your hasty assumption and accusation that I consume "writings of men" and somehow put them above the Holy Word, which of course is false.

Thank you for your prayers, I can always use some of those. As for the rest, we will have to agree to disagree.