Is Salvation Predestined??

[Catsmeow]

Your the best, Eric...luv ya!

[His son]

I don't think it's "deception" at all...I think we see through a glass darkly and I'm the very first to admit how little I fully understand all of this.

It's bewildering to me because it seems clear that God has a plan from the very beginning for Jacob and Esau. Jacob He loved, while Esau He hated...before either of them had left the womb.

God had already predestined Jacob's future...the older would serve the younger.

It was in God's plan and God is sovereign. It all has to do with God's absolute sovereignty. He has absolutely every right to make every decision concerning His own creation.

But I also struggle with many scriptures, believing it is not His will that ANY should perish.

It would be my wish that ALL live and ALL are spared...but I'm not God nor am I sovereign. I have no right to decide what to do with creation. I'm not the Creator.

So, for me...it's a hard issue to comprehend.

God hated Esau because of His foreknowledge of Esaus freewill choice to sell his birthright, a blessing for the satisfaction of his flesh, which he could have taken care of another way, with patience, and God would have given him his birthright. He did exactly what Eve did in the garden, he sinned in disobedience to God and served his flesh his way.

If you will just open your mind to study fully The Scriptures all of them that show forth the doctrine of predestination by the foreknowledge of God of all our freewill choices, and also His foreknowledge of all who will truly repent when convicted (true repentance being a complete change of mind, to the change in lifestyle.) and who will only be sorry for what it will cost them. This is just to simple for mans ego, so he does all he can to show himself some kind of a genius in understanding God's word, and so he has to change what God has written to us to make it fit what any intelligent being should be able to see, and forgets that God blesses only those who totaly humble themselves before Him, realizing that just like He has written to us we will never be able to rise to His hieghts of knowledge understanding and wisdom in this present pilgrimage. That's what love, Trust, faith, belief, and obedience are all about.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Catsmeow,

I understand justice and mercy...but it appears that God has pre-chosen who will be granted mercy and who will be cursed.

He said that He would harden whom He would harden and show mercy to whom He would show mercy...

That's His absolute sovereignty as God...I understand sovereignty. I just hate the thought of so many people created who may never hear the gospel or have the opportunity to be saved because of it. Does that make sense?

Do you KNOW that your kids are going to sin? How do you know that? Can you stop them from sinning?

WHEN they sin, what choices do you have? Are you prepared to respond NOW, BEFORE they sin? How do you do that?

Now if you answered as I expected, YOU will have a certain amount of FOREKNOWLEDGE that tells you that they will sin. God has PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE. Could God have achieved His purpose by STOPPING Adam and Eve from sinning? Not according to Romans. If you lock up your kids in the hose 24/7 and watch them every second, you may be able to keep them from sinning, but then what kind of kids would you have. God FOREKNEW that sin would rear its ugly head, and thus PREDESTINED HIMSELF through Christ to PAY THE PENALTY for that sin. Christ was PERFECT, He knew no sin. And now that HE has payed the debt we could not pay, all who believe in HIM for what HE did, will receive salvation.

So did you PREDESTINATE your kids to sin? Of course not, but you KNEW they would.

What you are considering is called by the Super Calvinists as "double predestination", that is that some are predestined to be saved and some are destined to perdition. Most Calvinists do not even accept this. However, God DOES KNOW who will be saved and who will be lost, BUT His desire is that NONE should be lost.

Can you show me the Lamb's Book of Life? If you can't then you, nor I nor anyone else can tell for absolute certainty WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WILL NOT. All we can do is LIVE FOR CHRIST in the manner He wants us to. Then HOPE that when He returns, He will not forget nor forsake us.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Rick]

" Can you show me the Lamb's Book of Life? If you can't then you, nor I nor anyone else can tell for absolute certainty WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WILL NOT. All we can do is LIVE FOR CHRIST in the manner He wants us to. Then HOPE that when He returns, He will not forget nor forsake us. "

Whoa! Using the fact that no man has seen the " Lambs Book of Life" as a proof that no one can know with absolute certainty that they are saved is not accurate. We can know in this lifetime.

" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. " 1 John 5:13.

as for being forsaken of the Lord:

" Let your conversation be without covetousness, and be content with such things as ye have, for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5.

Yes we can know!

Rick

[Russell]

" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe  on the name of the Son of God. "  1 John 5:13.

So our election is sure and we who have been called and chosen can be confident of our salvation.

This I believe, but each day I struggle with this human body i live in... as Paul said.

I have a question in regards to predestination. I have read all the posts and am inclined to favour WIP interpretation. I can also see "other one's" interpretation as well. It is not without merit... However what do you think about the following?

Before God created Lucifer did he know he would rebel? According to Scripture nothing is hidden from Him, from beginning to end...so yes he did know. Why create him then?? Why not just create spiritual beings who would not rebel...as in the angels in heaven. Then there would be no sin issue.

Did God know that Adam would sin...he must have...then why create him?

If God foreknew each of these who would sin thru their own choice...why not stop before even creating them.

Would it not be a fairer startement to say that God knowing this disobedience would occur... predestined it to occur. I say this for if God wanted there to be no sin issue ...could He not have achieved it... as in the heavenly angels or by whatever means he wanted. I mean why even create man who would sin.

He obviously had a plan from before the foundation of the world and He has predestined all that did occur...to occur ...for this is according to His will. So you say where is freewill...isn't the true believer using his freewill ...submitting completely to the leading of the Holy Spirit...but did not God plan this for these ones before creating the world...therefore did He not predestine these ones to be with Him.

So this is the reason i am inclined to favour that YHWH has the final say in all that happens including predestination of some to death and some to life.

Is it fair...doesn't seem to be..but this is according to my human mind ...but according to His will ...yes it is fair...for all creation is His and subject to His will.

And what of the scripture 2 Peter 3:9. "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".

WIP I need help on this one. :hug: ...is he referring to those who are the chosen ones??

I stand corrected on this issue by my superiors ....according to Scripture...if you would

Blessings

[His son]

Quote:

I understand justice and mercy...but it appears that God has pre-chosen who will be granted mercy and who will be cursed.

According to His foreknowledge of all their freewill choices.

He said that He would harden whom He would harden and show mercy to whom He would show mercy...

According to His foreknowledge of all their freewill choices.

That's His absolute sovereignty as God...I understand sovereignty. I just hate the thought of so many people created who may never hear the gospel or have the opportunity to be saved because of it. Does that make sense?

It is written every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Everyone will have that same opportunity to exercise their freewill choice to accept Him as their Lord and saviour.

[stevehut]

All through the Bible, God calls upon us to make choices. I believe that those choices largely determine the outcome of your life. Including whether you choose to serve God and be saved.

[stevehut]

Part 2:

If my people

[The Journey]

If Calvinism and predestined salvation is true than God is a Divine Rapist.

That is blasphemy.

God is not a divine rapist. Its a sorry thing that anyone on a Christian Board feels so compelled to throw around that kind of junk.

If you have issues with Calvanism then argue your points. But blaspehmy adds nothing to your arguments or your spiritual maturity.

Steve

[salt and light]

God elected everybody to be saved,but due to stubbornness and unbelief,many will not get saved. God called,but they refused. Jesus Christ saved me,not because I was one of the ones He picked,because there is no respect of persons with God as stated in Romans 2:11. We were all vessels of wrath until we repented and called on the Lord,and He reached out and pulled us out of the cesspool of sin,and He will do that with everybody who sincerely wants to repent. God is not willing that ANY should perish,but that ALL should come to repentance, as 2Peter 3:9 says, and also, verse 2 of 1 John chapter 2 says, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only,but also for the sins of the WHOLE world." It would be cruel for God to make someone,knowing ahead of time that He was going to cast that person into hell. God made hell for the devil and his angels as Jesus said in Matt.25:41, and if He made it for people to,then He would have made hell larger to begin with, but you know what? "Hell hath enlarged herself,and opened her mouth without measure...." {Isaiah 5:14}. Hell was not made for any person,or God would have made it larger in first place I believe. As my pastor once said a few years ago, "Sometime in eternity past,God did not choose certain ones for heaven and certain ones for hell, in other words, the ones who do end up in hell,it's not because they didn't pass the "eeny,meeny,miney,mo test". People who are in hell now,and people who will go to hell, is their fault, not God's.