Another take on "Free Will"

[Massorite]

Hi cajun,

The only thing that made me change my belief was a consistent reading of the Bible. There was no special event or experience that caused me to realise this. Of course, it appears that people have come to a different conclusion using the exact same passages as I did. Though I don't agree with them, I do thank God then that it's not an essential doctrine we're talking about

All the best,

~ PA

Oh I disagree. I believe that believing in predestination is eternally significant. Because it is a belief that can influence your choices or decisions. The belief in predestination creates a closed mind rather then an open one and we should always be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It takes away your ability to learn from your mistakes in God because you might chalk it up as predestination in stead of a lesson learned when we suffer the consequences of our bad decisions.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Oh I disagree. I believe that believing in predestination is eternally significant. Because it is a belief that can influence your choices or decisions. The belief in predestination creates a closed mind rather then an open one and we should always be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It takes away your ability to learn from your mistakes in God because you might chalk it up as predestination in stead of a lesson learned when we suffer the consequences of our bad decisions.

I can see where you are coming from, but the Bible speaks clearly of responsibility. Chalking up sin as just "predestination" won't hold any water when we meet God face to face. Everything we do in life is a learning-experience, absolutely everything. Ignoring something because we think it was predestination is like the Ostrich burying its head in the sand. It might make things seem better, but the problem's still there to bite you on the backside.

As I said earlier, I used to believe in free will. Now I believe in predestination. And do you know how my life has changed as a result of this belief? It hasn't. I live my life dedicated to God (as best as I can, at least) in exactly the same way now as before. If I used predestination as an excuse to sin, I'd be snubbing God's sacrifice, and that's just not right.

Know what I mean.

~ PA

[MeCajunboy]

Hi cajun,

The only thing that made me change my belief was a consistent reading of the Bible. There was no special event or experience that caused me to realise this. Of course, it appears that people have come to a different conclusion using the exact same passages as I did. Though I don't agree with them, I do thank God then that it's not an essential doctrine we're talking about

All the best,

~ PA

cajun to PA, That depends on your interpretation of "Not essential doctrine and how it applies to a particular situation PA. For instance, If when you're very young and you're having a sexual identity problem and you look at the versus you quoted you might say, " Well, what's the sense in questioning or fighting for my sexuality? After all, God "predestined" me to be this way anyway right? I mean, If it was in my destiny to be "heterosexual" HE would have steered me in this direction ....wouldn't HE? Or you could apply this to many walks or crosses in life. And since I used this analogy to show my point, and if I tell you that I, yes I, feel as though I changed my destiny by focusing on God's light and guidance, I am the miracle that pulled himself out from the gutters of New Orleans, lower than the lowest you can remember, and since that youthful day, never looked back to question if it was a wrong decision or if I was predentined to be the other way . Had I done that, needless to say my success story might be quite different. So when I hear the term "predestination," for me it only means that "only God has the key to that door and no man should ever attempt to unlock it. But PA, don't mistunderstand , I totally get where you're coming from, and truly understand why you feel the way you do. Just never use it for an excuse to keep you from fighting for what you want in life and what you know to be worth fighting for! O.K?

Blessings

Cajun

[Fraught]

I don't know if the post participants are still tuned in, but i thought a portion of this post #38 that thaddeus put up was worth a replay. maybe it will have more impact standing alone. whether or not it answers the OP, it gives a lot of clarity to the original sin issue.

This is what Gregory of Nyssa says about the creation of man.

"....we must make two basic clarifications. First, the immortality of the soul is not a natural attribute; it is a gift of the grace of God. Second, the creation of the soul and body in this particular manner, an act of the unfathomable divine love, also proves the depth of divine wisdom and divine economy for mankind. And for this reason: If God had created man immortal, then man aught also to have been incapable of sinning. For, if while immortal, he had fallen into sin, evil would have existed eternally. And evil would have itself, become immortal! On the other hand, if God had indeed created man immortal and therefore, incapable of sinning, then the freedom of man would have been curbed: man would not have been a free being. If again God had created man to be mortal, then the Creator would have been "the cause of the death" of His creature!" "ON the Song of Songs, Homily 12PG 44, 1020C.

[MeCajunboy]

Hi cajun,

The only thing that made me change my belief was a consistent reading of the Bible. There was no special event or experience that caused me to realise this. Of course, it appears that people have come to a different conclusion using the exact same passages as I did. Though I don't agree with them, I do thank God then that it's not an essential doctrine we're talking about

All the best,

~ PA

Oh I disagree. I believe that believing in predestination is eternally significant. Because it is a belief that can influence your choices or decisions. The belief in predestination creates a closed mind rather then an open one and we should always be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It takes away your ability to learn from your mistakes in God because you might chalk it up as predestination in stead of a lesson learned when we suffer the consequences of our bad decisions.

I agree with Massorite, PA! If it's a command from God, you may want to seek proper directives from more knowledgable resources as in some clergy that come out of a Seminary, for example. And I would be careful of any church leaders that preach too far to the right or left.

[Massorite]

Hi cajun,

The only thing that made me change my belief was a consistent reading of the Bible. There was no special event or experience that caused me to realise this. Of course, it appears that people have come to a different conclusion using the exact same passages as I did. Though I don't agree with them, I do thank God then that it's not an essential doctrine we're talking about

All the best,

~ PA

Oh I disagree. I believe that believing in predestination is eternally significant. Because it is a belief that can influence your choices or decisions. The belief in predestination creates a closed mind rather then an open one and we should always be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It takes away your ability to learn from your mistakes in God because you might chalk it up as predestination in stead of a lesson learned when we suffer the consequences of our bad decisions.

I agree with Massorite, PA! If it's a command from God, you may want to seek proper directives from more knowledgable resources as in some clergy that come out of a Seminary, for example. And I would be careful of any church leaders that preach too far to the right or left.

Good point Cajunboy

[ParanoidAndroid]

How does free will or predestination affect the way I live my life? CajunBoy and Massorite, I'm trying to understand your POV's, and to an extent I do agree with Massorite's comment that belief in predestination can lead to the philosophy that if sin was predestined then it doesn't matter if we sin or not. I understand that. But I also think the Bible emphasizes watching our own actions to ensure that we do not sin, and to mourn for our sins and strive to live godly lives.

CajunBoy, I'm not sure what you meant in your last post. How is believing in either predestination or free will a "command from God", according to your post. Though I do agree that it is always helpful to seek guidance from people who have more knowledge and experience, and people out of seminaries are good options for this in many instances. And it is also good to be wary of preachers that speak too far left or right. I'm not sure what "left" or "right" is, it seems to be an American left wing/right wing ethical/moralistic stance which doesn't really happen in Australia, but I am wary of any extreme teaching that seems to favour an extreme view.

In short, I don't see how predestination or free will can be seen as a command from God, and I can't see how believing in one or the other can affect my personal salvation. I've been on many message boards, been to many churches, spoken to many Christians and non-Christians about this issue, and this is the first time I've been told that my eternal salvation might be at stake for believing or not believing in free will. Not even the pastors that I have spoken to have said that, and I've spoken to pastors from both sides of the fence on this issue - those who have believed in predestination, and those that have believed in free will.

All the best, CajunBoy and Massorite

~ Regards, PA

[Rhonda Lou]

How does free will or predestination affect the way I live my life? CajunBoy and Massorite, I'm trying to understand your POV's, and to an extent I do agree with Massorite's comment that belief in predestination can lead to the philosophy that if sin was predestined then it doesn't matter if we sin or not. I understand that. But I also think the Bible emphasizes watching our own actions to ensure that we do not sin, and to mourn for our sins and strive to live godly lives.

CajunBoy, I'm not sure what you meant in your last post. How is believing in either predestination or free will a "command from God", according to your post. Though I do agree that it is always helpful to seek guidance from people who have more knowledge and experience, and people out of seminaries are good options for this in many instances. And it is also good to be wary of preachers that speak too far left or right. I'm not sure what "left" or "right" is, it seems to be an American left wing/right wing ethical/moralistic stance which doesn't really happen in Australia, but I am wary of any extreme teaching that seems to favour an extreme view.

In short, I don't see how predestination or free will can be seen as a command from God, and I can't see how believing in one or the other can affect my personal salvation. I've been on many message boards, been to many churches, spoken to many Christians and non-Christians about this issue, and this is the first time I've been told that my eternal salvation might be at stake for believing or not believing in free will. Not even the pastors that I have spoken to have said that, and I've spoken to pastors from both sides of the fence on this issue - those who have believed in predestination, and those that have believed in free will.

All the best, CajunBoy and Massorite

~ Regards, PA

I agree with you in that I do not see how belief for or against predestination is a command from God.

I disagree that belief in predestination leads to an indifference to sin. It may seem logical that it would, but it has been my belief in predestination which has galvanized me into holiness. Other Christians who have believed in predestination include Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Marthin Luther, St. Augustine, and, yes, John Calvin. They are also extremely "holy" by earth's standards. Paul, who believed in predestination, felt worse about his sin as he became an increasingly mature Christian. The closest I can come to an explanation is this:

A) The fact that God chose me, little old me, who is so weak and sinful, is such a blessing and an honor that I'd like to honor God back by being what He called me to be, though I know I need Him to do it through me.

B) Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose us from the foundation to be holy and blameless before Him in love. Romans 8:29-30 says that God foreknew and predestined us "to be conformed to the image of His Son." In essence, if we are chosen, part of the deal is that we are going to be more holy. No choice -- God's told us this is His purpose, and we know He fulfills His purposes. Therefore, what is the use in fighting it? To love sinning is to not be chosen. Yes, all true Christians still sin -- but we don't LOVE sinning. If we do, we've not yet been saved. And if we ARE saved, we hate sinning so much, and love GOD so much -- that we we will do anything we can to be holy -- and HATE it when we stumble. At that point, we can take comfort in the fact that we have a Mediator in heaven, that God chose us, that God will make us holy and blameless before Him in love -- and we love God even MORE and try even HARDER to be obedient.

C) God chose us in His sovereignty. God is SOVEREIGN. This means He is LORD. Part of salvation is confessing He is LORD and submitting to His will. He is a good, kind, gracious Lord. But He is LORD. I don't think that is emphasized enough. As Christians whom He's given citizenship in heaven, we are to obey our Lord and Master. It's only right to obey the rules of the government -- and He is our leader in the land we are to live -- heaven. That's the reality; here we bide time until we get there by being His ambassador in a foreign land. To submit is to obey. To think otherwise -- that we can serve God and "self" again is the deny the very salvation we say we have.

It all boils down to this: salvation is not simply acknowledging that Jesus died and rose for the sins of the world -- even the demons believe that. It is not intellectual. It is, "Jesus, I am totally depraved. I am rebellious, proud, arrogant, I live totally for "self", I can't change my heart. My behavior may be OK at times, but even though I don't know everything in my heart, I know enough to know I'm hopeless. I repent of this, and ask that you transform me. I can't do it -- I've tried. I acknowledge defeat!! I can NOT do this!! But, I know you can. Jesus, you died to pay the penalty of my sin, and you rose again to defeat the power of sin and death, so I can live forever with you. You promise to give me your righteousness in name (impute it) and to work in my life to bring it about in reality. I believe that. I trust You, and I know that You will, and are doing, that in My life. Thank you for the salvation from "self". You are my Lord, I owe you all of my allegiance. I'm so weak, but I pray that You live through me to accomplish Your purposes, and do anything You want through me to bring people into Your kingdom. I turn away from "self" and ask YOU to be my life. In Your Name I pray!! Amen" That's what salvation is. It is repenting, it is turning to God in faith, and trusting Him not only for heaven, but here on earth, it is making Him Lord, it is submitting to His will -- all the while knowing that HE is the one doing it through you. Anybody who does that would not love sin, try to have both sin AND God, or seek sin out. Yes, we sin, but we HATE it when we do. We do everything in our power to stay close to God so that He can flow through us.

Now, saying the above prayer, or something like it seems like free will, and in a way, it is. But we do not know everything God has done to get us to the point of saying it: which doors He has closed, which He has opened; the thoughts in us He's directed. Nobody can come to the Father unless the Father first draws Him. I have always believed in both "free" will and predestination -- I simply believe predestination trumps "free" will. God does not trust us to do it on our own, so He leads us to Him and gives us the words in His own timing and way, but we speak them in our "will". We still have to speak them.

Incidentally, that also goes for spreading the gospel: Many of the leading evangelists of other eras also believe in predestination: people need to know who God is in order to believe in Him. Belief in predestination actually GALVANIZED me to an evangelistic fervor also. I want others to know what I've found. I want to be used by God to draw others to Him. It is no accident that in the middle of the strongest argument for predestination: Romans 9-11, Paul says, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Regardless of what people think will happen with belief in predestination, once it is accepted, they'll be surprised at the positive effect it has on faith, obedience and evangelism. At least I was.

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

Other Christians who have believed in predestination include Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Marthin Luther, St. Augustine, and, yes, John Calvin.

I don't know about most of these, but St Augustine did not believe in predestination as protestants and especially as Calvinists understand it. He did not believe in predestination of the believer which puts him outside of protestant theology.

Paul, who believed in predestination

Paul has never believed in predestination either. It is Calvinists view of what he is saying but it is totally misapplied. There has never been any teaching in the history of the Church that Christians are predestined to be Christians or beleivers. It is a moot point. It is solely and entirely, a Calvinistic theory today. Most protestants do not adhere to the theory either.

A) The fact that God chose me, little old me, who is so weak and sinful, is such a blessing and an honor that I'd like to honor God back by being what He called me to be, though I know I need Him to do it through me.

you and every single soul that will draw breathe in this world. But the second part of that statement is a direct and explicit denial of predestination.

I think most have no idea what the term really means theologically.

It is a direct and explicit acceptance of the free will of man to repond to that Great Gift of Mercy.

Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose us from the foundation to be holy and blameless before Him in love. Romans 8:29-30 says that God foreknew and predestined us "to be conformed to the image of His Son." In essence, if we are chosen, part of the deal is that we are going to be more holy.

Follow the words. There is no predestination in that first clause. It is IN LOVE. Other places it will say IN Christ, or IN Faith. Never does it say predestined.

What is predestined for beleivers, those IN Christ, by faith, they will be conformed to His Image. God has a special plan for those who believe. They are not predestined to believe however. ONLY one way to be IN Christ, that is by and through faith.

And if we ARE saved, we hate sinning so much, and love GOD so much -- that we we will do anything we can to be holy -- and HATE it when we stumble. At that point, we can take comfort in the fact that we have a Mediator in heaven, that God chose us, that God will make us holy and blameless before Him in love -- and we love God even MORE and try even HARDER to be obedient.

you are free to enter, you are free to leave. Just go back to Genesis and read about the creation of man. God created man free. Adam lost it for mankind, Christ restored it, thus we are back to the original created order and purpose. Man freely being in union with God.

God chose us in His sovereignty. God is SOVEREIGN. This means He is LORD. Part of salvation is confessing He is LORD and submitting to His will.

Under the meaning of predestination there is no such think as submitting to His will. That is why it is wholly an unscriptural concept. You are constantly using wording that support man's free will. That is diametrically opposed to predestination of believers and all the rest of the theology that Calvinists, expecially put forth to support it. You just cannot have it both ways. They are contradictory terms.

I have always believed in both "free" will and predestination -- I simply believe predestination trumps "free" will.

Yes, because predestination never has existed as it is understood by many.

It is no accident that in the middle of the strongest argument for predestination: Romans 9-11,

this is a text used supposedly to support it. But the whole discourse from chapter 9-11 is not even about believers but who the Messiah came to save. It is predestined that God would send His Son, to be the Savior of the world. To reconcile the world to Himself. Rom 11:32 sums up this whole discourse dealing with mankind, fallen mankind, due to Adam. It is thefulfilment of the Gen 3:15 text.

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Regardless of what people think will happen with belief in predestination,

Again, mutually exclusive. Predestination of believers does not need the Word, does not need to hear and surely does not require faith. If it did, it is not degreed, it is not predestination. You couch all your explanation in the will of man, yet think you are predestined to do so. Impossible.

It might be better to study the real meaing of predestination. What it means to have something ordained from the beginning. A act by decree, not choice. They are polar opposites.

[kjn]

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Regardless of what people think will happen with belief in predestination,

Again, mutually exclusive. Predestination of believers does not need the Word, does not need to hear and surely does not require faith. If it did, it is not degreed, it is not predestination. You couch all your explanation in the will of man, yet think you are predestined to do so. Impossible.

It might be better to study the real meaing of predestination. What it means to have something ordained from the beginning. A act by decree, not choice. They are polar opposites.

And what is your understanding of the words translated into English as predestined? (Eph. 1)