How many of us are guilty of Blasphemy?

[OneLight]

One Light. Your ability to recite and copy scripture is impressive yet lacks interpretation, more so, correct interpretation, unless we look at historically what the audience would have read. We cannot take scripture, even chunks of it, and base a religion off what we THINK it means or what we FEEL God led us to belive. We have to study and be taught what the audience of that day, the Jews, would have read. How can we understand Shakespeare's, The Tempest, for its full, beautiful meaning if we are never taught? We cannot simply read his words and hope to somehow glean life application from it. So why do we butcher the Holy Word of God that way? Why do we read the bible and simply believe "what it means to us". I have been told "you ought to read the bible and figure some stuff out!" and "you ought to go read the Word and actually listen to what it says!". These, dear friend, are just cop-out answers from people unable to accurately defend our faith. They have no real answers to questions like the one we are discussing here, so they challenge anyone challenging them to find the answers in the Bible. How are we to do this without training? Why do we so often hear our youth, our teenagers, lamenting that they get nothing from the Bible, that they're hungry for truth? Because they are young enough and smart enough to know that they cant just "get it". We must be taught. The Bible is nothing if not Holy, i agree. But it is also many historical books, FULL of historical facts. Documentation of the history of our God and his people.

We must take into account several fascets of history about the bible, such as the apocalyptic writing style in the book of Revelation, to the political struggles in Jesus' day, to why Jesus went to the cities that he went to, the reason he performed miracles, why he waited so long to go back into Jerusalem. We have to understand this and more if we are ever to learn the true nature of Jesus.

My guess is that you believe you are a highly educated person, one who looks down on those whom you think are not as educated as you. I can't speak for all, but I can tell you that I like the history of the Bible and, even thought I am not an expert, I know how to study it. Tell me, do you believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to teach us all things or do you believe that we can only learn for man? Personally, what you think of me, does not matter.

Allow me to correct you, Thoughtful, for the one you agreed with in post #62 was from my post in #52. Artemus Prime has stood firm on the belief that one must know who Jesus is in order to be saved, sending millions to eternal separation only because they never heard of God, as the Bible speaks of Him. An arrogant statement, if I ever heard of one, thinking to know how God will judge those who have never heard of Him.

The reason I used all of Romans 1 was to satisfy Artemus Prime, who accused people of taking scripture out of context, as you just did to me. But, to ensure you, the verses of Romans, verse 20, does tell us that Gods can be known through His creation. That is why, in verse 21, the word tells that there are those who knew of God (the unrighteous), and still did not glorify Him. It is my belief that there are those who did believe that there is a God through His creation, and did worship Him, in their own way, for they had never heard of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or any history of the Jewish people of the Bible. Some of these people I speak of may be those who lived in South and North America, maybe some hidden tribes in Africa, or in the far North sections of Russia. Not every person that ever lived on this planet had heard of God. Not until the word of God was made know to them. But, some may of worshiped Him in their own way, one that pleased God.

I don't claim to know how God will judge them, but I do know that He is a God of Love and will judge their hearts.

Peace be with you.

[Eliyahuw]

Let me ask you a question, then, OneLight. Is it blasphemy to realize that there is a god through nature, yet worship nature itself, in ignorance? Not knowing any other diety and not coming to the realization that the God of christianity is the God who created the world?

Yes it is. Their worshipping nature, not the creator of that object.

I cannot really say what i feel about the Holy Spirit, having not done enough research on who the Holy Spirit is or what his/it's purpose is in Jesus' perspective. I can however tell you that it is important to be taught by not only biblical scholars but historians as well ( often times the same thing ). I think its crucial to the correct inturpretation of the Bible. Without studying the history, the political agenda of Herod during Jesus' day, how the Jews saw things like "heaven" and "hell", their ideas on ressurection..... we cant properly inturpret the bible. We cant glean much from something we dont know or understand.

[OneLight]

Well im sorry to have misjudged you.

I do not think im well educated. In fact i feel less educated now than i did when i was a sold out, mindless Christian ( not to say all christians are that way ), and i feel lost more now than ever. Yet, in that, i feel comforted. And i would hope i dont come accross as one who looks down his nose at others. Only one who is annoyed with the current system of Christianity.

I understand how it feels to get really frustrated when people become too narrow minded, which I am guilty of at times, myself. I have also misjudged you and am sorry for doing so. A person who thinks that they are better then others would never appologize so honestly.

Your statement about "when i was a sold out, mindless Christian" really sets me back. Reading your posts from thread to thread, I did not get the feeling you did not believe. Remember, if you had, at anytime, believed that Jesus is the Son of God, that He rose from the dead, that He is now at the right hand of God and asked Him to be your Lord and Savior, you are still saved. You may be in doubt, but God knows your heart and will never leave you, no matter how you feel about yourself. This is critical for you to know. The only sin that can not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Looking up the Greek word for blasphemy, in this verse, means to never asked Jesus for salvation. If you have asked, then you are saved. I, many times in my life, had turned away from God and lived in the flesh. I was always in fear of judgement, but never felt that God was a lie, nor did I ever say that I did not believe, but that I chose not to obey. As you state, I felt more lost then ever during these times. This, my friend, is the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, working in you. Learn to listen to His voice, for He will guide you to the peace in God that you are looking for. I will keep you in my prayers, brother.

Let me ask you a question, then, OneLight. Is it blasphemy to realize that there is a god through nature, yet worship nature itself, in ignorance? Not knowing any other diety and not coming to the realization that the God of christianity is the God who created the world?

In order to blasphemy against anything, one must know what they are blaspheming about. As my argument goes, those who never heard of God, in any form, can not be held accountable for their ignorance. God will judge them according to their hearts, for from their hearts, come their worship in their beliefs. If one of them realizes that there has to be a power greater then they could ever imagine, they will, in my opinion, try to find God. Since they had no references to go by, they are ignorant and may have many gods. God knows their heart better then they do and will take everything in account when they stand before Him. I am convinced that we will, someday, meet these people and admire them for trying to live a life pleasing to God in such an environment. We have it easy, compared to them. We have history to teach us, creation itself, Bible teachers and the Holy Spirit. Yes, as a child I was told that God created everything, but He seemed more like a character in a fable then God. It was trying to understand how everything in the universe fits together that started my search for God. Trying to understand how I worked is what convinced me that He is real.

I cannot really say what i feel about the Holy Spirit, having not done enough research on who the Holy Spirit is or what his/it's purpose is in Jesus' perspective. I can however tell you that it is important to be taught by not only biblical scholars but historians as well ( often times the same thing ). I think its crucial to the correct inturpretation of the Bible. Without studying the history, the political agenda of Herod during Jesus' day, how the Jews saw things like "heaven" and "hell", their ideas on ressurection..... we cant properly inturpret the bible. We cant glean much from something we dont know or understand.

Ahhh! The Holy Spirit is just as wonderful as the Father and the Son, for together, They are God. The Trinity. Click on this link and you will see where in the Bible you can learn about the Holy Spirit. Start in the New Testament first to get en understand on who He is and why He is here. For one, not trying to take scripture out of context, but just pointing to one verse, we read:

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?searc...lewordsonly=yes

God be with you, Brother. I do look forward to discussing more.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Do you go to movies or read a well read book where the name of God or Jesus is taken in vain? Isn't it sad to think that you can't even enjoy one of your favorite actors anymore because they are performing in a moving that thows blasphemy words, cursing God and Jesus around just to make the bucks. What have we come to?

When I was doing a performance as part of my final assessment for my 2nd Year of uni (studying theatre), there was one section where I was playing a soldier who was cursing the name of Jesus and asking why Jesus would want me to fight in the army. I'm sure there are many that would say I should have refused to do this particular part of the performance, and I can understand their point. But I think God understands that I was only acting, just as the audience knew I was only acting. It is an accepted part of stage-life that what what happens on the stage does not reflect the actors real beliefs, though it does reflect a societal issue.

Though movies are different to the stage. Movies are often pulp-entertainment for the masses and have no real societal value behind what the moment can bring. The Theatre on the other hand forces us to challenge our societal norms and beliefs. It forces us to confront what we do not like and to make decisions. But I'll stop there, for fear of going into a rant about the power of theatre (it's a shame not more people in the world attend theatre, actually).

~ Regards, PA

[OneLight]

One Light. I appreciate your prayers, probably more than you know. I will assure you that i have never stopped believing. I have merely backtracked myself to the point when i first heard the Gospel, and am now searching for it's true meaning. I'm searching for what Jesus' audience would have heard. I do not go to church anymore, not because i dont believe, but because church has become so visitor oriented, so "non-believer" focused, that i hear the same message every week. I believe we should witness, mind body and soul, but when the water is stagnant im going to stop drinking. I want truth, i want what's real. I dont want to accept a message from someone who believes the Holy Spirit has taught him. I want facts to back up what he's saying. Once again, if Christianity is real, and Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, then there must be more than just "faith" driving it. I no longer want to live my life with no answers, and nothing but "faith' to keep me going. I believe faith is good, but i also believe that for something so sacred, and so important as Christ himself, there will be concrete, absolute answers.

Unless you have a time machine, you will never be able to put yourself in the shoes of those in the Bible. You will never truly understand how it was back then. You will never find your answer through studying history. You will only be assuming that you understand. That is why we have to have faith in what we accept as the truth. Nothing else can cut it, brother. I can not point to Jesus and say "There He Is!" It is a personal relationship between you and God. Unless you understand that and seek for Him through the means that we have, which is His Spirit, you will not find Him or your answers. His way is not head knowledge, it is heart knowledge, through faith.

I once heard a man tell this bit of secular wisdom. If one person tells you that you look like a horse, think nothing about it. If two tell you the same thing, you would be wise to consider their statement. If three or more agree, then you better buy a saddle.

How many have told you to increase your faith?

[Artemus Prime]

I cannot really say what i feel about the Holy Spirit, having not done enough research on who the Holy Spirit is or what his/it's purpose is in Jesus' perspective. I can however tell you that it is important to be taught by not only biblical scholars but historians as well ( often times the same thing ). I think its crucial to the correct inturpretation of the Bible. Without studying the history, the political agenda of Herod during Jesus' day, how the Jews saw things like "heaven" and "hell", their ideas on ressurection..... we cant properly inturpret the bible. We cant glean much from something we dont know or understand.

[Artemus Prime]

You're welcome artemus. Though we are not alone, we are few among many. Gotta stick together

Have you heard of N.T. Wright? He's the bishop where i get a lot of my info from. I was put in my place here not too long ago because i was using his info out of context (my bad) and i had to take a break from these boards to just learn. But now i'm back.

The Historical Jesus is so much more alive than the flat, platonic, western Jesus. We have to research and know who He is. We have to see how Herod would have seen him in his last days.

(Big shock coming here) I wholeheartedly agree!...I am very familiar with N.T. Wright...his works on eschatology in particular have greatly influenced my own faith...as well as William Lane Craig, Dr. Alvin Plantinga, and G.K. Chesterton, to name but a few...

Agree with you about history as well...Scripture can never mean what it never meant, and I don't know HOW many times I've stated in a plethora of places around these boards that we must learn to read in paragraphs, not in chapter/verse terminology...truth, even truth that is supposedly scripturally based, is not subjective...hope all is well with you! A.P.

[MeCajunboy]

I cannot really say what i feel about the Holy Spirit, having not done enough research on who the Holy Spirit is or what his/it's purpose is in Jesus' perspective. I can however tell you that it is important to be taught by not only biblical scholars but historians as well ( often times the same thing ). I think its crucial to the correct inturpretation of the Bible. Without studying the history, the political agenda of Herod during Jesus' day, how the Jews saw things like "heaven" and "hell", their ideas on ressurection..... we cant properly inturpret the bible. We cant glean much from something we dont know or understand.

POPPYCOCK! PURE HOGWASH!! The Holy Spirit interprets for us if we do not understand.

Cajunboy;:::In many cases , and if one is well-versed in God's word and living in HIS spirit, many times God's Holy Spirit interprets for me many questions that I have had relating to God's Word. Proof? God said that even an child will know and understand HIS Word! Why not someone who has followed HIM for 40 years? Proof? Happiness, success, content, living and loving God's word. If you didn't know that , YOU DON'T KNOW GOD.

Eliyahuw, it is quite obvious now that we will never be able to discuss this topic. Please, read what i've said again and this time, read it as you would read the newspaper, or a book. Dont automatically think i'm attacking anything.

Eliyahuw, it is foolish to simply assume the Holy Spirit will interpret for us if we do not understand. It is frustrating to me that i have made such compelling arguments against this line of thinking and the only response I get is more "faith". If you wish to truly discuss this with me, Eliyahuw, i would suggest actually discussing it, making points, bringing in facts. I do not wish to discuss this with you if all im going to get are "have faith" answers. Assume, for a second, that I need more than just "faith". Assume i need concrete answers as to how the Holy Spirit inturprets for us. If Christianity is the true way, then there must be a concrete answer, an absolute truth. Otherwise it stands no stronger than satanism.

Please do not misinterpret me. I'm not saying satanism is the same as Christianity, but, Eliyahuw, answer my question with more than just cop-out, run of the mill, christian answers.

Would we ever get beind the wheel of a car, not knowing the first thing about driving, and just assuming that the Holy Spirit will teach us what we dont know as we're driving? No!

Would we ever get on a plane in which the pilot says he isn't sure how to fly, but he's trusting the Holy Spirit to teach him how in mid-air? No!

Why then trust our very salvation on this same line of thinking. Why not seek out biblical scholars and historians to tell us what was really going on? Why not be educated in the least bit?

Im not suggesting that everyone go to seminary, or oxford, or wherever. There is information readily available via the internet or universities or other sources, most often times for free. Im beginning to feel that we as christians are just afraid of what we'll find. We're afraid that learning what the New Testament Jews would have learned will be starkly different from our sugar coated, watered down, Western American, Industrialized, pumped out version of christianity. I say its high time we stopped living in fear, and searched for a deeper truth, a truth that Jesus would WANT us to seek out. Why skim the surface, being content with what we know and just making up the rest, believing that the Holy Spirit has taught us? This is nothing more than Experientialism.

Cajunboy:::"You're recommending we want to learn more about what the people of that time would have learned, yet we have created new sins; different sins, from the people of early times. Yes, most of what God has to say can still be interpreted to us now in HIS words. But even if you attend a seminary or venture through the net, you're still getting a watered down version or someone else's opinion of what "early" believers thought and how they worshiped.

Yes, I believe that God shows me through HIS spirit what HE needs and wants me to articulate to others, though not in every situation and not as that very moment that I think I may need it. Many times God puts me off for a time so that I may experience a situation at another time and another way. So, I simply wait, and many times I can come back in time with the response God meant for me to convey. If HE didn't need me to convey a message for someone, He simply won't do it. I have learn patience and timing and that I am to wait on HIM for most of my decision making.

One Light. I appreciate your prayers, probably more than you know. I will assure you that i have never stopped believing. I have merely backtracked myself to the point when i first heard the Gospel, and am now searching for it's true meaning. I'm searching for what Jesus' audience would have heard. I do not go to church anymore, not because i dont believe, but because church has become so visitor oriented, so "non-believer" focused, that i hear the same message every week. I believe we should witness, mind body and soul, but when the water is stagnant im going to stop drinking. I want truth, i want what's real. I dont want to accept a message from someone who believes the Holy Spirit has taught him. I want facts to back up what he's saying. Once again, if Christianity is real, and Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, then there must be more than just "faith" driving it. I no longer want to live my life with no answers, and nothing but "faith' to keep me going. I believe faith is good, but i also believe that for something so sacred, and so important as Christ himself, there will be concrete, absolute answers.

Cajunboy:::Responding to your comment to Light about why you do not go to church anymore. It would be wise for you to reconsider and perhaps when and if you do return, which is what God requires of us, only focus on your personal relationship with HIM and tune out everyone else, unless in the case that you have someone that you went to church with that you love fellowshiping with. But to say you don't go to church simply because it's so "visitor" oriented, firstly you don't know what's in every man's heart at the time you're making that assumption. And secondly, you might want to seach for a church more to your liking . As long as it meets the requirements of God's word, the rest can and should be overlooked. You're going for YOUR sake. Not the sake of the hypocrits around you.

Thoughtful, thank you for such an amazing post...I am coming from exactly where you're coming from, if I may be so bold, and what you've said is what I've been (in a nutshell) posting around Worthy for close to two years...all that to say, it's good to know I'm not alone! Thank you for sharing, and for such an amazing post...please know that I agree with you whole-heartedly...we must learn to keep Scripture in its proper context. We must learn to integrate faith and reason. We must realize that the church is not a house for the holy, but a hospital for the Spiritually sick. It's as simple as that. The joining together of faith and reason is not irrational, but supra-rational...we must love Christ with all our heart, but with all our mind as well, and it's high time we as the Church got back to portraying that! Blessings, A.P.

Cajunboy:::on your final note of "We must learn to integrate faith and reason." Where exactly do you think you acquired the "Reasoning" from? If you are doing the work of the Lord; well, let me speak for myself anyway, "If I am doing the work of the Lord, HIS spirit gives me the reasoning and wisdom to further understand most situations I am dealing with. If you are not going to God for the reasoning, I suggest you do, because no man's reasoning or education is complete or thourough enough to get you through life on its own.

[MeCajunboy]

Cajunboy:::Responding to your comment to Light about why you do not go to church anymore. It would be wise for you to reconsider and perhaps when and if you do return, which is what God requires of us, only focus on your personal relationship with HIM and tune out everyone else, unless in the case that you have someone that you went to church with that you love fellowshiping with. But to say you don't go to church simply because it's so "visitor" oriented, firstly you don't know what's in every man's heart at the time you're making that assumption. And secondly, you might want to seach for a church more to your liking . As long as it meets the requirements of God's word, the rest can and should be overlooked. You're going for YOUR sake. Not the sake of the hypocrits around you.

Cajunboy:::on your final note of "We must learn to integrate faith and reason." Where exactly do you think you acquired the "Reasoning" from? If you are doing the work of the Lord; well, let me speak for myself anyway, "If I am doing the work of the Lord, HIS spirit gives me the reasoning and wisdom to further understand most situations I am dealing with. If you are not going to God for the reasoning, I suggest you do, because no man's reasoning or education is complete or thourough enough to get you through life on its own.

Cajun. God does not require us to go to church. Now i know what you're thinking, because i've seen it before. "Remember the sabbath and keep it holy." I also know that if i were to tell you that the sabbath was a saturday by jewish tradition on our calandar, you'd probably know that too. But honestly, none of that matters. What matters is the correct inturpretation of that commandment. God does not require us to go to church every sunday, and/or wednesdays, and/or saturdays.

Why overlook the fact that churches are so "visitor" oriented that i am not getting spiritually fed? That what im getting is just salvation message after salvation message in different forms. Believe me, Cajun, i do not assume to know what every man is thinking, but i can tell you that i have been to enough churches to know what im talking about. If i go to church for MY sake, that makes it all about me, which makes it selfish. Which, again, is pointless.

If im only going to church for me, then what about everyone else? Are they just the easiest stair steps to heaven? I will not turn a blind eye to weak, watered down christianity. If i am to put my entire soul on the line, i want to be darn sure that what i invest my heart and soul into isnt fake, or bland. I want truth. I refuse to only do this for me.

True, reasoning comes from knowledge and intelligence which in a basic stretch can be credited to God. But i believe God gave us the power to reason and the power of logic not to be cast aside, but used. Why not involve logic in something so important as our salvation, our religion, our God? Again, your response to that is nothing more than "have faith" which is just a cop-out answer. It solves nothing, and it takes all the responsibility off you to search for truth.

No Thoughtful, You don't know what I'm thinking. So why not ask? Please note that I did not say that the God told man to go to church every weekend. He did say, "Keep holy the sabboth" However. So we're in agreement here. The key to God's command here is "Take time out to show "Reverence" to me for all that I have given you.

The logic you speak of that you wish to use to "Know" God better is the same "logic" "knowledge" and "wisdom" I'm speaking for that is God Given. If you take time out to study the first pages of Proverbs, you will get to witness what "knowledge" and "wisdom" of God's Word is derrived from.

On the note you referenced on "why you are not being fed in a "visited" church I repeat, perhaps you may need to find a church where you are not so distracted by the "visitors" whom you feel are wasting their time, and dedicate your efforts to a church where others are searching for some of the same basics as yourself. I don't know what else to tell you, as I'm quite satitsfied and fulfilled in my church and I pay little attention to what other are getting out of their efforts. But because I spend 10 hrs per week prior to going to church in being one with God, I honestly don't see many others there, until it's time to leave and then we wish each other well.

[OneLight]

One Light, i respecfully disagree. There is much to learn from studying history.

The Bible itself is a book of history, but, unlike any other history book, this one is written by godly men that were moved by the Holy Spirit, writing only what God would have them write. You need no other book, unless they are used as references only, for the Truth you seek is only in the Bible.

I believe there is no other way to learn than to study history. Of course we cannot actually step back into time to hear how they would have heard it. But history is written for us. Explainations of writing styles and what was meant, that's all been documented so we have something to learn by.

These are by men, not by God Himself. Do you prefer the teaching of men over the teachings of God? Apply the Bible to your life today.

I refuse to just accept what I know as absolute truth, because absolute truth leaves no room for interpretation. And i refuse to accept that what i dont know will be shown to me by a Holy Spirit.

And here lies your problem. You refuse to accept what God will show you through the Holy Spirit.

I strongly and completely disagree that unless i seek Him through the means i've been given, i wont find my answers. I believe through research and study and being taught by those who have been educated, learning the history and the secular world around which Jesus lived, that there i will find answers.

What answers are you looking for? Are you still searching for the answers of salvation when you say you have accepted Christ as your savior?

I dont want to just close my eyes and float through life. I want to know absolute truth, because there IS absolute truth. Without it, Christianity fails.

Absolute truth is this:

1. We are sinners.

2. We can never get into Heaven as sinners.

3. God loves us so much that He sent His only Son to die for our sins.

4. Jesus arose from the dead to sits at the right hand of God

5. The only way to Heaven is by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

6. Without salvation, you will spend eternity absent from God.

If you do not believe these absolutes, you believe a lie! One can only come to Jesus through faith. If you are trying to know the mind of God, you have already set yourself to total failure, for man can never know the whole and complete mind of God.

Many people have told me to increase my faith. But many people have also told me that if i just pray and "give it to God" that i'll find answers. After 20 years of "giving it to God" im still coming up short. Im tired of Christians who are afraid to get their hands dirty with me, who are afraid to question and afraid to search. I refuse to listen to people telling me i need to have faith, when they have no idea what they're talking about. Especially those who don't even know who i am.

Would you like to introduce yourself? I am not afraid of getting my hands dirty, but I will not foolishly seek mans idea of absolute truth.

Thoughtful,

You have stated that you are comfortable with me, as I am with you. Because of this, I feel that there is more going on inside of you then what I would feel comfortable discussing on a public board. In my profile, you will find my email address. Since you did not disclose yours, I ask you to email me so we can discuss this matter in private.

Your Brother in Christ,

OneLight