Which Came First: The Church or the NT

[Snowdoove]

re: Which came first: The Church or the New Testament?

I visited this web site, www.protomartyr.org/first.html.

I read the article by Fr. James Bernstein. It was titled: Which Came First: The church or the New Testament.

I found this article interesting and I plan on doing more research on this topic.

I thought it would make an interesting topic for everyone here at WB.

Your ideas. :t: :t:

Snowdoove

[mobile21]

The Church of course.

Christ gave us for salvation the Church, and the Bible is the compilation of the Church's tradition (done at the Synod of Hippo in 393).

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matt 16:16-18)

Furthermore, only the Church has God-given authority (and therefore, final authority):

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:19)

[Guest longdog]

I would say it is entirely a matter of definition.

If you choose to define the church one way and the NT another you can argue one POV but if you change your definitions then you could argue another.

For no particular reason I would go church then NT.

Argument for this : As Mobile says above.

Argument against : The church of the 2003 CE has been so affected by 1700+ years of the NT as to be unrecognisable from the church of 300 CE.

Ya takes ya pick really.

Where's that fence gone?

[other one]

Snow dove, I think the NT is actually the written form of the verbal teachings and experiences of the apostles and the people around them. The Church was started By Jesus himself by appointing the apostles. So I would think the Church was first, quickly followed by the NT which quickly made the church expand.

If you mean the NT as written then the Church did come first and the NT was added book or letter at a time for various reasons and finally brought together as a book.

It really doesn't matter if you have them seperated into different books or all together in one binding. Just more little things for us to worry about.

[stevehut]

The church came first, of course. The books of the Bible were not written until many years later, and they were not compiled into a single volume until long after that.

The early church had the Old Testament as a guide, as well as the leadership of the Apostles. If Peter was the pastor of your church, would you really need a Bible? U could ask him anything, and he would know.

[irishcowboy]

being that the New Test. was written about the Church, after the start of it, then a person would have to say the Church came first....

that is almost as good a question that still goes around, which came first? the chicken or the egg???

the Chicken did..... that has been my answer since i started hearing the question..

[stevehut]

Anyone else here truly believe that the church has the authority to overrule the Scriptures?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

I suspect that many, when they hear the words "New Testament" think only of the 2nd half of the Bible. The word "testament" however is:

1242 diatheke {dee-ath-ay'-kay}

from 1303; TDNT - 2:106,157; n f

AV - covenant 20, testament 13; 33

1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to

be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly

possessions after his death, a testament or will

2) a compact, a covenant, a testament

2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 9:15-18 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So the simple answer is that there could be NO NT "church" without the NEW COVENANT (New Testament).

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Leonard]

Snowdoove! Welcome back! It has been a long while.

Well, I think the Church existed before the Scriptures of the New Testament were completed, but I don't think that is what you're asking. I think you are asking whether God established the Church or the New Covenant first. Is that the question?

[stevehut]

Furthermore, only the Church has God-given authority (and therefore, final authority

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funny, I thought the church was obligated to obey the Scriptures... I'm always intrigued when I meet people who devote themselves to defending - not the honor of God - but a particular institution.