is predestiny fair?

[JB Horn]

i came to faith by way of the Holy Spirit.

So why did He choose you?

people can believe in God and have faith that He exists without accepting eternal life. but they can not accept salvation without faith. i think where you're getting confused about my post is that you, seemingly, think faith and salvation are interchangeable words, but they aren't.

John 3:16 who so ever (what?)

I'm glad the the Holy Spirit chose you LadyC God bless you.

JB

[TM75]

If you believe that you came to your faith on your own then you earned your way to heaven, good for you.

please quote what portion of what i said even so much as implied that. for the life of me, i really can't figure out where you're getting your ideas from, because it doesn't even resemble what i've said.

everyone, ALONE, makes the choice to accept or reject the gift of eternal life.

Is it not by faith you come to salvation? Can you accept the gift of eternal life without faith? Christ says all those who believe in Him shall have eternal life.

If I miss-understood and you did not come by that faith "ALONE" I apologies. But I would be interested in knowing how you can make that choice without first having the faith to do so.

Love

JB

http://inhisword.net

Faith alone justifies, but what exactly is you're faith in? If you hear the word of God and understand it, then you should receive this. You have the choose this day whom you will serve, whether be the strange gods you worshipped in Egypt or the God of Israel.

Dueternomy 32 :15 (TRC 1537 at faithofgod.net)

[Trusting Jesus]

to the elect it is the blessing

but how about these who are not the elect

I have heard it explained like this: God is at all times present. He knows yesterday, today, and tomorrow, because He is there. Tomorrow is right now to God. Our human minds have a hard time grasping this. So, let's say you have video taped a football game. A friend visits who hasn't seen the game so you watch it together. You know who wins, but your friend has no idea. You can't change the outcome of the game...it has already happened, but you know the end from the beginning. Well, this is sort of like God looks at us. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will and who will not accept Him but still gives us all the chance of salvation. The Holy Spirit is available to everyone....He calls to everyone, but it is their choice to listen to Him. God doesn't want anyone to perish, but He also won't force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

<>< ><>

Nathele

[Guest Biblicist]

the Bible also says (sorry bib, but i'm disagreeing with you) choose you this day whom you will serve. so the Bible does not tell us we are incapable of choosing. contrarily, it commands us to make that choice.

One can not choose God unless He has chosen you first. Only then can one surrender themselves to God. We have to admit that the term elect and predestination are in God's word and they mean what they say. It's really starting to anoy me the way people pick verses apart and whine about word meanings, as if God could not properlly preserve His word in translations.

The simple fact is that God has elected some, He predestined some for salvation. He offered salvation to everyone but the truth is undeniable, not everyone will be saved. It's just the way it is. Humanly fair or not, God is just and He is always fair.

OUR job is to live as Christ wants us to live and proclaim the gospel to others. Let God do the choosing.

[Guest LadyC]

according to scripture, God is not willing for ANY to perish, and sent His son for ALL of mankind. (this post is to bib and to jb, by the way.)

every man, woman and child will have the opportunity to know Christ and accept the gift of salvation. the Holy Spirit doesn't pick and choose who to woo, God does, and God says He isn't willing for any to go to hell. the Holy Spirit is GOD'S spirit, through whom we are drawn to Christ. and God says it is His desire for all man to come to know Him.

here's a few scriptures to ponder.

rev. 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

romans 10: 9,10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

john 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Guest LadyC]

i should add, there are plenty of scriptures which indicate that many people ignore the Holy Spirit's promptings, and reject God.

i believe there is a huge difference in how we interpret the words "elect" and "predestination". clearly we don't see eye to eye. but God is just and God is fair, at least that we agree on. but i think bib, you and i should probably agree to disagree lest our discussion deteriorate into harsh words that we later regret, because i have to say i'm struggling not to be offended by your insinuation that i'm picking verses apart and taking them out of context, when the same could be said from either side of this argument.

[JB Horn]

If you believe that you came to your faith on your own then you earned your way to heaven, good for you.

please quote what portion of what i said even so much as implied that. for the life of me, i really can't figure out where you're getting your ideas from, because it doesn't even resemble what i've said.

everyone, ALONE, makes the choice to accept or reject the gift of eternal life.

Is it not by faith you come to salvation? Can you accept the gift of eternal life without faith? Christ says all those who believe in Him shall have eternal life.

If I miss-understood and you did not come by that faith "ALONE" I apologies. But I would be interested in knowing how you can make that choice without first having the faith to do so.

Love

JB

http://inhisword.net

Faith alone justifies, but what exactly is you're faith in? If you hear the word of God and understand it, then you should receive this. You have the choose this day whom you will serve, whether be the strange gods you worshipped in Egypt or the God of Israel.

Dueternomy 32 :15 (TRC 1537 at faithofgod.net)

[Guest Greg Davies]

There's an old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

How much more a man!

It's true that the Father draws a person to the Son (John 6:44) and it's the Holy Spirit that convicts you of sin (John 16:7), but as Jesus said in Luke 13:3, unless YOU repent, you will perish.

Greg.

P.S. Those that would use Rom. 3:10 and 11 to show that we don't have the power to choose, are appearently missing the fact that Paul is quoting the Old Testament to show that no one is righteous under the Law. Read verses 20-22 to get the point.

[JB Horn]

according to scripture, God is not willing for ANY to perish, and sent His son for ALL of mankind. (this post is to bib and to jb, by the way.)

every man, woman and child will have the opportunity to know Christ and accept the gift of salvation. the Holy Spirit doesn't pick and choose who to woo, God does, and God says He isn't willing for any to go to hell. the Holy Spirit is GOD'S spirit, through whom we are drawn to Christ. and God says it is His desire for all man to come to know Him.

here's a few scriptures to ponder.

rev. 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

romans 10: 9,10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

john 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44&65 are two of my favorite verses. Very Calvin

65

He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." HCSB

If God's will is that every one be saved then all will be saved "according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,"

Eph 1:9

[Guest Biblicist]

Some verses for you to ponder.....

7 times in Scripture we are told Salvation belongs to the LORD

Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD.

Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah

Psalm 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;

He is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalm 62:1-2 Truly my soul silently waits for God;

From Him comes my salvation.

He only is my rock and my salvation;

He is my defense;

I shall not be greatly moved.

Psalm 98:2 The LORD has made known His salvation;

His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.

Jonah 2:9 But I will sacrifice to You

With the voice of thanksgiving;

I will pay what I have vowed.

Salvation is of the LORD."

Revelation 7:10 (present prophetic tence) and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Rebelation 19:1 (present prophetic tence) After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

Salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD

Without God no one can be saved

You are correct, God is not "willing" that any should perish......however we know that some do. So if God does not want them to and they do does that mean he has no control over it? And if he has no control over that, what else does he not have control over?

You are correct, Jesus came to be the saviour of the world......however we know that some do not get saved. If he came to be the saviour of all and he is not, then how can we be sure he is the saviour of any?

Salvation is not ferry dust sprinkled over creation.....so that those who think "happy thoughts" can fly away with the Saviour. It's specific. It's organized, as our Lord God is. It's purposeful.

How can you quote John 6:44 and believe that salvation is man's choice. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." No one can come to me unless the father draws him...... Those are Jesus' very words.

You can be offended that I accuse you of taking verses out of context, [which I did not] but the plain fact is that I take neither side. Yes we accept Christ, but we can not do that....in Jesus own words....."Unless the Father draws him."