is predestiny fair?

[Guest Biblicist]

I guess I have only one question - do you believe you deserve to enter heaven?

Welcome to Worthy!

Is that a yes, silviawang? And if it is, what "qualifies" you to enter heaven?

Of my own merit, I do not deserve to enter heaven. However, washed in the blood of the Lamb, God see's me through Jesus and therefore I am now deserving of Heaven.

but how about those never heard the name JESUS

God's word clearly tells us that we are without excuse because all creation shows the glory of God.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities

[silviawang]

but the truth is undeniable, not everyone will be saved. It's just the way it is. Humanly fair or not, God is just and He is always fair.

OUR job is to live as Christ wants us to live and proclaim the gospel to others. Let God do the choosing.

Humanly fair

!!!

i think humanly wisdom can not understanding G-D's fair

[silviawang]

God's word clearly tells us that we are without excuse because all creation shows the glory of God.

glory but not the grace

[mrs]

I think its easy to get emotional about this topic because whichever side you come down on, it will seem like the other side is almost maligning God's character.

I would like to recommend an excellent documentary , very well done, on the subject called Amazing Grace. They do a very good job of tracing the history and beginning of both Calvinism and Arminianism, the stages they went through, the Scripture support used by each side, and how they conflict.

I know from my own personal experience as well, that many who disagree with Calvinism don't really understand what it really teaches, or why it teaches so. For those who don't believe in election etc, may I suggest you answer for yourself, from Scripture, one question : Is man spiritually dead or not?

[Mutzrein]

Smiles i agree with what you said that all humans are inherantly evil and would not choose God on their own.Where we differ is that you believe God only calls the ''elect'' and I believe God calls us all and have given us free will to answer or ignore his calling.God is drawing all of us but some choose to reject him.Matter of fact most will sad but true.The words of Jesus matt7:13-14.The whole notion of predestination of believers. turns God's judgement to void, null, and of no purpose.If you cannot do anything about what you do. Any judgement would just be a grandstand on the part of God.If He has predestined every action, everything you did, not by any rational choice you might have made for yourself how then can he find you guilty for it? Do you really understand what predestination means?

Scripture doesn't tell us that God predestines every action. He predestines those whom He has chosen to become His children. These are the elect - to whom the gift of life is given.

[Guest Biblicist]

God's word clearly tells us that we are without excuse because all creation shows the glory of God.

glory but not the grace

It helps to read all of Romans 9 for context...but these verses are the heart of it.

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Arminius said that God can't save a person unless the person wants it or chooses it...These verses clearly state that is not true...as well as

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Guest Biblicist]

Smiles i agree with what you said that all humans are inherantly evil and would not choose God on their own.Where we differ is that you believe God only calls the ''elect'' and I believe God calls us all and have given us free will to answer or ignore his calling.God is drawing all of us but some choose to reject him.Matter of fact most will sad but true.The words of Jesus matt7:13-14.The whole notion of predestination of believers. turns God's judgement to void, null, and of no purpose.If you cannot do anything about what you do. Any judgement would just be a grandstand on the part of God.If He has predestined every action, everything you did, not by any rational choice you might have made for yourself how then can he find you guilty for it? Do you really understand what predestination means?

Scripture doesn't tell us that God predestines every action. He predestines those whom He has chosen to become His children. These are the elect - to whom the gift of life is given.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way,

But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart,

But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD,

And He delights in his way.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD,

How then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,

Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

There's more, I could go on.....

[Mutzrein]

Smiles i agree with what you said that all humans are inherantly evil and would not choose God on their own.Where we differ is that you believe God only calls the ''elect'' and I believe God calls us all and have given us free will to answer or ignore his calling.God is drawing all of us but some choose to reject him.Matter of fact most will sad but true.The words of Jesus matt7:13-14.The whole notion of predestination of believers. turns God's judgement to void, null, and of no purpose.If you cannot do anything about what you do. Any judgement would just be a grandstand on the part of God.If He has predestined every action, everything you did, not by any rational choice you might have made for yourself how then can he find you guilty for it? Do you really understand what predestination means?

Scripture doesn't tell us that God predestines every action. He predestines those whom He has chosen to become His children. These are the elect - to whom the gift of life is given.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way,

But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart,

But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD,

And He delights in his way.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD,

How then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,

Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

There's more, I could go on.....

Do you mean like this one?

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Hey I'm not disagreeing with predestination per se. Just saying that God does not predestine EVERY action.

[Guest Biblicist]

Smiles i agree with what you said that all humans are inherantly evil and would not choose God on their own.Where we differ is that you believe God only calls the ''elect'' and I believe God calls us all and have given us free will to answer or ignore his calling.God is drawing all of us but some choose to reject him.Matter of fact most will sad but true.The words of Jesus matt7:13-14.The whole notion of predestination of believers. turns God's judgement to void, null, and of no purpose.If you cannot do anything about what you do. Any judgement would just be a grandstand on the part of God.If He has predestined every action, everything you did, not by any rational choice you might have made for yourself how then can he find you guilty for it? Do you really understand what predestination means?

Scripture doesn't tell us that God predestines every action. He predestines those whom He has chosen to become His children. These are the elect - to whom the gift of life is given.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way,

But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart,

But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD,

And He delights in his way.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD,

How then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,

Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

There's more, I could go on.....

Do you mean like this one?

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Hey I'm not disagreeing with predestination per se. Just saying that God does not predestine EVERY action.

Well, when Satan tempted Job, it was not by his own authority, but by God's.... God does not tempt anyone, but that does not mean he is not in control of the one who does...

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Questioning how much authority or control God has is questioning predestination and God's omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence....IMHO

Romans 9:20 "Who are you, o man, to talk back to God?" As I said before, who can know the mind of God, or question it?

The way I see it...God places trials, temptations, and situations before us. He lets us use what He has given us, His Word, to make the RIGHT decision. However, every decision we make ultimately leads us on the path of HIS choosing. We "think" we are making our own decisions but they are all within God's holy righteous plan for our lives.

God only has ONE plan for your life. It's not Plan A, it's THE PLAN. He's not sitting up in Heaven going, "OOps, Sheesh, Bib's messed up again...Good thing I have a plan B...plan C...plan D...." So lets turn it around a bit, instead of thinking that God does or does not have control over your life. How about if we say God does have control and it's all for our good, whether or not we "choose" the right path, because it's all God's path.

If you really think about it, God does not just predestin us to be saved then let us go along on our merry way. Before we even get to salvation, He places people and circumstances in our lives that guide us along toward HIM. And then, if we mess up/stray there are consequences and punishement. He is our FATHER...He's there, to guide, help, correct, punish, and pursue. A true loving father does not leave his children to their own devices, he is there every step of the way. And we will never grow out of our need for our Father.

[Mutzrein]

I look at it this way.

The names of those whom God has predestined to be his children have been written in the book of life from before the foundation of the earth. These WILL receive the gift of eternal life because God has for-ordained it.

I see the parallel here between physical birth (of the flesh) and spiritual birth. No-one who has ever been born of the flesh has decided to be born. It was their parents choice. And so it is with God. He has chosen those who will be born of His Spirit. Human decision does not come into it.

In the physical realm, there is the planting of the seed, a period of gestation and then birth. Again there is a parallel in the spiritual realm. The seed is planted, the Spirit does its