Is God the author of evil?

[asajoseph]

So far, since I've been on here, I feel that I've been fairly pro-Christian in my musings. But now perhaps it's time for me to write something a little more negative, about the biggest concern I have with the concept of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

So I'll start at the beginning - did God create all evil?

Imagine you're at T0 - the very instant that God created the universe. Now, God's sitting there, whilst all matter is still at singularity, and, being omnipotent, he has the potential to create an infinite number of different universes. He goes ahead and creates this one. He creates the universe in which natural disasters wipe out thousands. He creates the universe in which Hitler massacred 6 million jews, in which Stalin causes the death of two, three, maybe four times that. The result of the actions of evil humans you say. But wait...

At T0, God is sitting there not just omnipotent, able to create an infinite number of different universes, but also supposedly omniscient. He is, if omniscience is as we understand it, also able to see exactly what will happen in the future in the universe he is about to create. He sees the Indonesian Tsunami, the Stalinist purges, the Nazi Holocaust. He sees all this, but he goes ahead and creates the universe anyway. There is evil in this world, and then there is EVIL - and I must wonder to myself, could God, the omniscient, omnipotent being who supposedly is directing the whole show, not have created the universe in which there was just a little bit less?

So what's the answer? Open theism - a doctrine said by many orthodox christians to be heretical, and stripping God of his majest? Calvinism, a doctrine that strips man of his accountability? Or Molinism, and it's inherent philosophical difficulties?

[Shad]

God did make everything perfect it was man that screwed it up. If Adam and Eve had resisted Satan's trap they would have lived forever and things today would still be the way they were in the Garden Of Eden but for their sin the lord cursed them, the earth, and all of mankind that came after them.

God could stop every Evil thing on the face of the earth if he wanted to but if he did then mankind would think they are allowed to do whatever they want when they want because God will always fix it. God allows these things to happen in hopes that us weak minded humans might learn from our mistakes and many many times we do not because we think we know better than God, we think that he will always be there down the road to save us when we are ready to be saved but it doesn't work like that.

I believe part of the reason God allows bad things to happen and evil to exist is to remind us that we need to walk in his light everyday and realize that we don't hold our destiny in our hands God does and at a moments notice that our lives on Earth could end and that we shouldn't always hold on to the false hope that we can always get saved tomorrow or next week or next year when WE decide it's time to be saved.

Isaiah 55:6 states "Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near."

IMO that verse is telling humans to accept their Lord and Saviour now because tomorrow may be to late. For nobody knows when the Lord will come again not even the Angels or Jesus himself knows the only one is GOD. So to live life like we always can accept Jesus as our personal Saviour tomorrow is like saying "I'll put on the brakes after I hit that wall in front of me".

Edited October 29, 2007 by Shad

[Christ_Sheep]

Is God the author of evil? This is definitely an interesting topic, one that I bet has swam around the minds of many people at one time or another. I would be remiss to say that none of us here, at one time or another did not entertain that idea. I am 99% sure that we all weren't always saved, had a firm grasp on theology, and didn't have a spiritual connection with god. With that said, I think I'll answer your question this way to the best of my ability, or if nothing else, I'll simply give my response to it.

Christ has all power, the evil deeds that humans drum up and create on this planet he's given us. Yes, given us ... because the lord gave dominion of the earth to man. We are the original cause of the sin we see in this world, and that really isn't god's problem. The problem is us. If the real question is, why did god make humans with free will, capable of causing all sorts of hardships (which I perceive it is), I say that because of your upfront inquiry about world suffering. God gave us free will for one purpose, to serve him and express love. He could not do that if we were restricted of a free will. With that free will we have two choices to make, good and evil. It is possible not to sin, or it was ...Adam made that impossible in his rebellion.

God knows everything, and has all power ... we cannot understand god's rationale on dealing with people whom commit atrocities such as Hitler, Stalin, Dahmer, and any other heinous figure in history, but we do know that their punishment will be just when that event comes. God is not bound or obligated to work on a timetable. Remember in the bible, god always referenced events, when this happened, then this will happen, so on and so forth. Because god created beings in his own image, and gave them free will does not take away the fact that in order to receive proper love, he must expect hate,rejection, and carnage too. Odds were pretty high that among the billions, possibily trillions of people that have lived since creation, that not every person he created would bend to his will and accept him geuninely into their hearts and confess him with their mouths. Suffering is a part of the package of first our sin nature and for god to weed out whom loved him, and those that truly did not.

God could have created a perfect world, which is the ONLY scenerio where you could see a world with a little less evil as you put it, but that would take away the free will of people. To me what it sounds like your saying is, "God strike down evil doers before they get a chance to stir the pot", but in most cases, that is not how he operates. Remember, we are still under the grace period where we still have time for god to atone for our sins no matter how large, small or quaint.

To wrap up, the lord created the universe as a playground of sorts before the real thing- which is heaven. Earth is an exact replica of heaven in terms of the creativity of the planet. It grieves the lord that many people decide to sin and cause havoc, but in creating spirit beings that he wanted to respond to him a little different way than Johnny 5-0, that is the risk he was willing to take. He is not and did not cause evil, we did ... and no matter how small or great, god cannot violate how he chooses to deal with those who choose to sin against him.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Christ_Sheep

[Guest righteousness]

God is the author, period. Jesus being God made man is the author and finisher of our faith. The only way to know anything about God is to know Jesus. We know all things through Jesus Christ, including the answer to the question at hand. Jesus is the author of it all, whatever you believe of anything, you believe of Christ, you believe of God! Who would seek a God who produced evil in their lives? Everyone wants peace and understanding in life. What many cannot fathom is that they already have it! All the peace and understanding of Jesus Christ himself is already ours. People, of their own free will choose to deny this fact. Now this does't make it any less of a fact, it only allows a person to feel as though they are seperate from God, which is not possible. In the beginning, everything was good, the so-called fall of man came when we ate off of "The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil". God did not say you were right or wrong to eat of it, but if you do, you shall surely die. Death not just being a physical death, but also the shame, guilt, anger, rage, sadness, envy, or any other negative experience you could put yourself through. Before eating of it we only knew good, we only knew God. Afterwards we knew God and something else, this whole evil business. God is the same yesterday, today, and tommorow. The same way they had the choice to eat of this tree or not. That same choice is ours in every moment of our lives. The only way you can experience any negativity in life is to eat from the fruit of this tree. Without tasting this fruit, you could only know good, only know God. You can't serve two masters. If I say I believe in good and evil, theres no way I can't whole-heartedly believe in either! How could we have eternal life with the existence of death, would that not negate it being eternal? How could anything be truly good with evil imbedded in it? Jesus shed his blood for the righteousness of all, no one can believe they are truly righteous or good unless they believe all are through Jesus Christ. We must worship God in spirit and in truth, placing no confidence in this physical realm. It is a spiritual race that is already won through Jesus Christ. I hope I've shed some light on your question, but for a more definative answer, i'd say the perception that anything is seperate is the author of evil.

[Guest Jazmine]

Evil, after all, is a consequence of freedom of choice, which is a divine gift from God. I beleive God 'allows' evil at times to accomplish his purposes. A third of the host of heaven with Satan reaped the consequences of bad choices in pre-existence. We are here to be tried in all things and prove our obedience to our Heavenly Father. Through temptations there is 'opposition in all things.' We do have the ability to choose between good and evil and we will be judged according to our works (choices).

Jaz

[mr1975]

Is God the author of Evil? The answer to this is yes and no. To understand this you have to first realize that God is a perfect God, He is a Good God, there is no evil in him, he is beyond it grasp. Now he is the creator of all and there fore anything he creats is Subject to his laws, and code of morality. Anything that goes against God is Evil, for everything is his creation, there for Subject to his laws.

In short everything from use to Satan and his minions, to the very angels were created by God, and there fore we are subject to his laws. Anything or any one who disobeys those Laws have disobeyed God and are Evil. Now God gave the Angels free well, Satan and his followers turned against God, thus making them Evil. Adam and Eve ate from the Tree that God had told them not to eat from thus making them evil because we disobeyed God.

God is not evil, he is good pure simple. The only thing that is evil is anything that goes against God, pure simple.

Now that is my belief on Subject.

[damo1]

damo1

i would say no to your Question i mean what we see know happening around the world these are man made disasters and this has nothing to do with god at all how could a god who created everything we see with our own eyes do something like what is being said in this topic is god the author of evil ?

what would make you say this if you do not mind me asking you ?

if we wear to say look at the people of Egypt and look at moses and pharaoh in the book of exodus some might say that god was toying with pharaoh as if to say god was hardening pharaoh heart this is the way i saw the flight of gods people when god said to moses i want you to lead my people and moses knew that pharaoh would not let the people go i stil love going over the story of how god bought the people out of egypt and as i read i see that may be i am right also in saying what i am saying hear that god did have full control of the hole situation and at any given time god could have stopped all that he was throwing at pharaoh but my god has a sence of humer and i love the way he sses the big picture

hear is a little man who thinks he is a god and this little man called pharaoh does not know who he is dealing with and how seriouse my father in heaven can get when he wants to this story and me are like close old friends as i also read this in jail and have seen the movie sevral times and i love it when ever the old version is played with the old actors

but to your question god sees what is being done around the world he is not that blind or stupid yet would you blame god for not stepping in i would not say hay god look at what is going on do something when all along what we see being done is done by our own hands

that is as simple of an answer i am going to give you on this god is not the author of evil we are and its done by our own hands not his hands

from damo

[Christ_Sheep]

i would say no to your Question i mean what we see know happening around the world these are man made disasters and this has nothing to do with god at all how could a god who created everything we see with our own eyes do something like what is being said in this topic is god the author of evil ?

Man made disasters? Like Hurricane Katrina? Like the tsunamis? Like the countless earthquakes?

As far as I know these are natural disasters, and are in no way connected to human actions upon this earth. Of course since God is the Creator, he had these disasters in his plan ... plans to cause mass destruction and death for no apparent reason. If you are brainwashed, then you can conceivably spin such disasters as "signs" or "mysteries" of God, just another reason he is so perfect. But then, what could possibly convince you he isn't perfect? Everything that happens, good or bad, you attribute to the mysterious nature of God, and somehow tout as more convincing evidence that he has a mysterious and perfect plan. You've obviously changed the meaning of the word perfect ... to include things that are mysterious and have no apparent purpose other than seemingly being random causes of nature. This level of thinking is very similar to how Christians interpret prayer. God answers EVERY prayer right? But his answers are Yes, No, or Wait. Strikingly, those same results are achieved by prayer to any other God, or to any inanimate object, because Yes, No, and Wait covers every possible outcome.

but to your question god sees what is being done around the world he is not that blind or stupid yet would you blame god for not stepping in i would not say hay god look at what is going on do something when all along what we see being done is done by our own hands

that is as simple of an answer i am going to give you on this god is not the author of evil we are and its done by our own hands not his hands

Let's forget for a moment that natural disasters must be the preconceived plan of God, and attributable only to his will. Let's play with the idea for just a moment that these natural disasters are just that ... just naturally occurring.

If God has the power to step in, to prevent such disasters from causing the destruction and toll on life, why doesn't he? If you have the power to save a child from a burning building, at no physical cost to yourself, and you know it's the right thing to do ... and you were in a simple position to carry out such an act, wouldn't it be considered wrong not to? If you were in a position with foreknowledge of some horrendous event, and given the capacity to change the outcome to avoid the tragic results, and you willingly deny the victims such grace, you have not done something perfect, you've done something utterly disgusting and revolting, you've allowed human suffering and death. Now let's return to the fact that everything happening is part of God's plan, this means he actually did "write" in his "book" for these things to happen ... he decided to set these disasters in motion. So, going back to the example of saving a child from a burning building, or any other position in which you *could* save people. Let's say that besides being in such a position of control, you also started the fire! That's right .. you were the one who planned for the building to go up in flames, to put that innocent child in such a frightful and deadly position, now beyond just being your duty to save this child ... you are Evil. And that is why God cannot only be defined as imperfect, but he can also be described as an evil being.

That is the usual approach many atheist I've known personally take, which is world suffering to prove that there is no god. However, it is an unfair assesstment and I will tell you why. As I've stated before, in a thread much like this because god's creations (ones with free will mind you) wallow in muck and cause disaster, is not his own personal fault. The world began perfect, Adam couldn't keep the one command he was given therefore, sin entered into the world through one man. We inherited a fallen nature ... and because of a fallen nature, the world is privy to all manner of disasters whether naturally or man caused. Using hypotheticals for a second, say you have a parent with a child either in his early years or teenage years, that decides to go out and vandalize the sides of a building Is that act the father's fault? Whether or not he decides to interject on that child's behalf is of no consequence because of two reasons: If he does ... it's because he's stopping his child from doing something morally wrong. If he doesn't stop his child from doing something wrong, he's letting him do it out of discipline and love. He knows that misdemeanor (I think that form of vandalism would be classified as such), is something his child has done and he must suffer the consequences for them, whatever the law requires. Whatever option that parents chooses to take, he is justified in doing so since he, himself, didn't cause the act. And it works the same way with god as it concerns us. Sometimes for a person to truly understand the scope of their behavior, they must experience what it means to pay for their behavior. That causes in most, growth and understanding. Because bad things occur is that a representation of god, himself? No, because we live in a fallen world and god does not. I guarantee you there are no power hours going on in heaven right now, only praises and utter holiness.

The position that god is evil because of world suffering lies too much undue confidence that humans and, humans alone, are not responsible for their own actions. We rely way too much on our emotions and how we "feel" about situations to determine how god feels about certain situations, and to define his nature. We are called not to be ruled and subjected to our emotions, because they're forever changing. One day we feel one way and the next day we feel another way. It is impossible to glass ceiling Christ this way because god is an infallable spirit, and we gain a revelation on why he allowed or didn't allow certain acts to happen through our spirit, not our intellect, logical reasoning or our brain.

If you want to shake your first at anything, it should be at somebody who is long gone, Adam... since he brought the yoke of original sin into this world. God does not cause anything to happen, it would be against his nature which is love. Love doesn't bring a fiery building down on the head of innocent child. Love didn't bring viruses and diseases into the world, those only came in after Adam ate prematurely of the Tree of Good and Evil. I definitely feel all humans would have been allowed to eat from the tree, but only after we had grown and matured to the point spiritually that god wanted us to be. That way our wills and senses would've been keen enough to discern, and stay away from sin once approached with a chance to sin.

On your logic, you are truly forgetting all the times "god" did save that girl from a burning building ... it would be rather ignorant of anyone to assume that anytime disaster hit, that someone died or was unjustly convicted as a result of it. We have finite minds and we will never understand the total picture, even if we did many still would not believe it all. If god were as evil as you put it, you would be the only person in existence god said he didn't die for.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Christ_Sheep

[damo1]

i would say no to your Question i mean what we see know happening around the world these are man made disasters and this has nothing to do with god at all how could a god who created everything we see with our own eyes do something like what is being said in this topic is god the author of evil ?

Man made disasters? Like Hurricane Katrina? Like the tsunamis? Like the countless earthquakes?

As far as I know these are natural disasters, and are in no way connected to human actions upon this earth. Of course since God is the Creator, he had these disasters in his plan ... plans to cause mass destruction and death for no apparent reason. If you are brainwashed, then you can conceivably spin such disasters as "signs" or "mysteries" of God, just another reason he is so perfect. But then, what could possibly convince you he isn't perfect? Everything that happens, good or bad, you attribute to the mysterious nature of God, and somehow tout as more convincing evidence that he has a mysterious and perfect plan. You've obviously changed the meaning of the word perfect ... to include things that are mysterious and have no apparent purpose other than seemingly being random causes of nature. This level of thinking is very similar to how Christians interpret prayer. God answers EVERY prayer right? But his answers are Yes, No, or Wait. Strikingly, those same results are achieved by prayer to any other God, or to any inanimate object, because Yes, No, and Wait covers every possible outcome.

but to your question god sees what is being done around the world he is not that blind or stupid yet would you blame god for not stepping in i would not say hay god look at what is going on do something when all along what we see being done is done by our own hands

that is as simple of an answer i am going to give you on this god is not the author of evil we are and its done by our own hands not his hands

Let's forget for a moment that natural disasters must be the preconceived plan of God, and attributable only to his will. Let's play with the idea for just a moment that these natural disasters are just that ... just naturally occurring.

If God has the power to step in, to prevent such disasters from causing the destruction and toll on life, why doesn't he? If you have the power to save a child from a burning building, at no physical cost to yourself, and you know it's the right thing to do ... and you were in a simple position to carry out such an act, wouldn't it be considered wrong not to? If you were in a position with foreknowledge of some horrendous event, and given the capacity to change the outcome to avoid the tragic results, and you willingly deny the victims such grace, you have not done something perfect, you've done something utterly disgusting and revolting, you've allowed human suffering and death. Now let's return to the fact that everything happening is part of God's plan, this means he actually did "write" in his "book" for these things to happen ... he decided to set these disasters in motion. So, going back to the example of saving a child from a burning building, or any other position in which you *could* save people. Let's say that besides being in such a position of control, you also started the fire! That's right .. you were the one who planned for the building to go up in flames, to put that innocent child in such a frightful and deadly position, now beyond just being your duty to save this child ... you are Evil. And that is why God cannot only be defined as imperfect, but he can also be described as an evil being.

damo1

you have a proble with what i said bring this up with the op of the post and dont play god hear if you do not like the way i answerd this bad luck people should have a say on this with out thinking god is involved in al these things that man does did i bring up katrina was the topic on hurrican katrina think hard befor you say something

from damo

[EricH]

Saints,

This has the potential to be a very useful discussion. But it turned personal. Consider the Terms of Service:

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