Trinity or Oneness?

[mrs]

Burn, I liked your post.

And Sherman , to say " Was Jesus praying to Himself? Yes, Jesus is God." isn't a good enough answer. The fact that Jesus was praying to His Father makes sense. But to say He was praying to himself, does not. He might as well then just have said ' self, I dont feel like doing this, but I know you want me too so I will.' That implies a split personality or worse.

Really there is no way to look at that passage and get anything of it but that Jesus and the Father are distinctly seperate People.

[Ovedya]

#1 I agree Jesus is the name of God as he is the Father,Son and ,H.S.But I do not believe God to be triune but a uni-personal God.

Then you are obviously a modalist. Evidence from the Bible clearly refutes modalism. Do we actually need to dredge up the past 1,400 years of this controversy? Modalism always has been, and will be, a heresy of the church.

#2 Again I agree they are all one and the same, but this does conflict with the trinitarian view.

They are one, yes. But also three.

#3 The H.S. is indeed the Spirit of the Father and is no more a separate being ,person or entity from the Father than your spirit is a separate person from you.

That is not at all true. Jesus talked about the Father and the Holy Spirit using definitive terminology. In other words he identified them as separate beings with separate identities. It would be ridiculous for me to walk up to you and try to talk to your human spirit. It would similarly ridiculous for you to talk about your human spirit as being a different person.

All your answers fly in the face of the trinitarian belief,I think you should find out what trinitarians are really teaching.I dont think you are any more trinitarian than I,you have just not realized it yet.

Yeah?

No.

I'm afraid not.

[Neopatriarch]

I have been struggling with this issue for a while now. I have a close friend who I have been discussing this with for a while and I don't know where to point him in scripture. I was curious if anyone knew any good scriptures I could read about speaking in tongues and the trinity or oneness?

I've personally read David K. Bernard's book The Oneness of God, and I think this is one of the better books Oneness believers have on their version of the doctrine of God. But let me recommend Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity by Gregory A. Boyd. Boyd does a pretty good job of dismantling Oneness doctrine.

One of the more difficult verses for Oneness believers IMO is:

John 17:20

[other one]

Well, we are up to 20 pages and it really doesn't seem like this is any different than the last three hundred of these things I've read.

Might I suggest that you all come to a consensus as to what the words from the Hebrew and Greek languages that is translated to the English word god means...... I think you are not capable of coming to any consensus because the word god means something different to different people.

[Neopatriarch]

I have been struggling with this issue for a while now. I have a close friend who I have been discussing this with for a while and I don't know where to point him in scripture. I was curious if anyone knew any good scriptures I could read about speaking in tongues and the trinity or oneness?

I've personally read David K. Bernard's book The Oneness of God, and I think this is one of the better books Oneness believers have on their version of the doctrine of God. But let me recommend Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity by Gregory A. Boyd. Boyd does a pretty good job of dismantling Oneness doctrine.

Neopatriarch,what is your opinion on this?I wrote it myself.

THE DOCTRINE OF ONENESS: God is one and has always been one.

While God is one in essence and three in person, this unity of essence is not an impersonal unity so I'm willing to accept the claim that God is a person. The OT does seem to speak of God as being one person. Nevertheless, God is also three persons.

As a genuine human being, Jesus was and is distinct from the Father.

Was Jesus personally distinct from the Father? That is, is the human Jesus a distinct person from the Jesus who is God?

While I confess that the deity of the Son did pre-exist incarnation, I do not see that deity as the second person of the Trinity, known as " God the Son ", and separate from the Father or Holy Spirit, but rather as the uni-personal God of the old testament. Yaweh, the Father, the Great I Am.

In other words, you deny eternal Sonship.

Orthodox trinitarians do not believe the second person of the Trinity is separate from the Father or Holy Spirit. To maintain the essential unity of the Godhead, a better way of saying it is that the second person is personally distinct (not separate) from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[damo1]

I have been struggling with this issue for a while now. I have a close friend who I have been discussing this with for a while and I don't know where to point him in scripture. I was curious if anyone knew any good scriptures I could read about speaking in tongues and the trinity or oneness?

I've personally read David K. Bernard's book The Oneness of God, and I think this is one of the better books Oneness believers have on their version of the doctrine of God. But let me recommend Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity by Gregory A. Boyd. Boyd does a pretty good job of dismantling Oneness doctrine.

Neopatriarch,what is your opinion on this?I wrote it myself.

THE DOCTRINE OF ONENESS: God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal spirit after incarnation and that heaven was empty. This is not what I believe.God the Father continued to exist as a transendant, unlimited spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existance. It is not as though the omnipresent spirit of God transformed himself into a man, to the exclusion of his existance as the Holy spirit.

When God assumed a human existance with a complete human mind, psyche, will, and emotion etc. He was distinct from the Father while he continued to exist as the Father in heaven. As a genuine human being, Jesus was and is distinct from the Father. This is because of His humanity not because he is the second person of the Trinity. While I confess that the deity of the Son did pre-exist incarnation, I do not see that deity as the second person of the Trinity, known as " God the Son ", and separate from the Father or Holy Spirit, but rather as the uni-personal God of the old testament. Yaweh, the Father, the Great I Am.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, I believe He is the Spirit of God the Father and not a seperate person of the Trinity, the third person known as " God the Holy Spirit. " The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, He is the spirit of the Father, He is the spirit of Christ. God is a spirit, the Holy Spirit. There is one God not three, nor are there three persons that create one God. He is one uni-personal God that He himself became flesh. There is no such person as God the son nor God the Holy Spirit but God the Father, the son of God and the spirit of God.

damo1 to owings as eagles

i am going to ask you a question in gentlness and in brotherly love wear did johns baptisem come from you should know what i am getting at hear have a look at what i have left for you and i feel you wil get your answer to why no one is answering you

matthew 26 new spirit filled filled life bible

the prayer in the garden

36 then jesus came with them to a place called gathsemane and said to the disciples sit hear while i go and pray over there

37 and he took with him peter and the two sons of zebedee and he began to be sorrow and deeply distressed

38 then he said to them my soul is excedingly sorrowful even to death stay hear and watch me

39 he went a little further and fel on his face and prayed saying oh my father if it is possible let this cup pas from me nevertheless not as i wil but as you wil

what was the son of god doing in his last few hours what was he saying to his father in heaven

you can not say it was god on the form of a man speaking to him self even in the garden

and how can you ignore this by saying what you wrote your stance and what you belive in ?

how do you explaine this in your own knowledge since i notice that no one else is answering you but you are diging up something left by the op on their very first post in this topic

i am not being rude to you i am not mocking what you belive in i just hope i can get an honest answer from you ?

so that your other questions can be answerd

and i have another question for you

the baptisem of john wear was this from ?

matthew 21 verse 25 the baptism of john where was it from from heaven or from men ? and they reasoned among them selves saying if we say from heaven he wil say to us why then did you not belive him

26 but if we say from men we fear the multitude for all count john as a prophet

27 so they answerd jesus and said we do not know and he said to them neither wil i tel you by what authority i do have these things

in the same manner the pharisees wear trying to out wit jesus i feel you are doing the exact same thing

jesus always new how to out wit the pharisees he was always one step a head of them and he knew by his questions he threw at the pharisees they would not be able to answer him

and i honestly feel brother you wil like wise not get your answer

i love you as a brother and i hope you can see this

god bless have a good day and a good weekend from your brother in the lord damien

[damo1]

damo1

hm its sad how some do not beleive in eternal son ship as i sort of new this was going to come up on this topic with i also new some orthadox penticostals in a town i was living in these people also belived in what some are know holding on to with out alowing the holy spirit to open up the truth of gods word to them this is what puzzles me i am jotting down what i am going to be talking about in the mens group before we brake up for christmas

when some one says i do not belive in your views they are right to say this yet i am also teaching new christians to go straight to gods word and do not go by any doctrine man pass on that includes what i even understand as a person should be able to use their brain god has given us a brain

we are to ground our selves in gods word not alow our selves to be manipulated by false teaching that does not line up to what it says in our bible

i too am skeptical but i have learnt one thing not to push the same thing down peoples throat and i have also learnt to hear the other side when it comes to topics like this

i also tel new christians to do their own leg work that means ground your self in the word in front of you and keep your mind open and do not alow your self to be bombarded as i hold on to this warning the same judgment god is going to use on the leaders he has ordained to govern our churches he wil also use this on us who are alive on this earth and i do not want to confuse any one but lead them to the cross and pray that god gives them the knowledge they need when it comes to the living word of god

what also puzzles me i have heard some say they under stand the bible just after reading it say for a year when it takes more than a year to understand what is written down in old and in new testament it takes time and a lot of taming your own spirit when it comes to reading gods word i am only know comfterbal wear i can understand what happend to jesus and how hard it was for him being gods son and living in a world that was going to one day kill him as i feel he lived a short life but what he had to say and how he understood the scrolls he was reading it was as if god was right their among mortal men

god sends his son to save the world and what does the world do those that wear alive in the time jesus was walking the earth nailed him to a cross

and jesus also ran in to negative people the pharisees wear very negative they had al the answers and this is what it is like know has any one been able to work this great mystry out ?

when god decides to judg the world not in our own understanding of when he is going to do this i feel our eyes wil be opend to the truth

i my self do not want to pul away from this thread i hope to also learn from the other side with out having one view shoved down my throat

and i hope and pray that we can walk in unity with each other in brotherly love weather we agree with each other or not

and i also hope we show that brotherly love wear we hold our views and give also the other side a fair go

this i feel is man doctrine not gods doctrine as how can gods word be confusing

Hebrews 3 new international version open study bible

Jesus greater than moses

1 there for holy brothers who share in the heavenly caling fix your thoughts on jesus

the appostle and high priest whom we confess

2 he was faith ful to the one who appointed him just as moses was faithful in gods house

3 jesus has been found worthy fo greater honor than moses just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the than the house its self

Warning against Unbelief

hebrews 3 new international version open study bible

7 so as the holy spirit says today if you hear his voice

8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion during the time of testing

in the desert

9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what i did

10 that is why i was angry with that generation and i said their hearts are always going astray

and they have not known my ways

11 so i declared on oath in my anger they shall never enter my rest

this is what i stick my belief on as it was one of the first verses i was led to and i dare not test god like the for fathers did as i do not want to enter his rest i do not want my father in heaven teling me i do not know you and i want to keep in the good books as i dare not test him like the for fathers tested him when he kept his word to moses by saying i wil threw you free these people from pharos grip yet what did the eygptians do they grumbled and they put god to the test

wear do we have the right to ignore what is written in plain ink

12 see to it brothers that none of you has a sinful unbelieving heart that turns away from the living god

13 but encourage one another daily as long as it is called today so that none of you may be hardended by

sins deceitfulnes

14 we have come to share in christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first

this is why i say i dare not lead no one astray and this is why i say to new christians i do not want you worshiping me but to put your trust in the holy spirit when it comes to gods living word

i dare not even alow my self to have an unbeleiving heart and just sift what i want to hear

so i hope i have been able to show those that have been comunicating with me why i am so open and so honest i let gods word speak for its self

god bless from your brother in the lord damien

[damo1]

damo1

i am not sure but has any one botherd to look at Ephesians as i have gone threw this post while in prayer for most of the day and i was reading again in ephesisans as i did have this marked in my bible

has any one botherd to look at how paul explains this ?

paul does reveal the mystery

ephesians 3 new international version open study bible

1 for this reason i paul the prisoner of christ jesus for you gentiles

2 if in deed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of god which was given to me for you

3 how that by revelation he made know the mystery as i have briefly written already

4 by which when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of christ

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men as it has know been reveald by the spirit for his holy apostles and prophets

6 that the gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of his promise in christ through gospel

7 of which i became a minister according to the gift of the grace of god given to me by the effective working

of his power

purpose of the mystery

8 to me who i am less than the least of all saints this grace was given that i should preach among the gentiles

the unsearchable riches of christ

9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the begining of the ages has been hidden in

god who created all things through jesus christ

also read from 11 to 13

and also look at appreciation of the mystery 14 to 21

philippinas 2- verse 2

10 that at the name of jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven and of those on earth

and of those under the earth

11 and that every tounge should confess that jesus christ is lord to the glory of god the father

god bless from damo

[AnotherTraveler]

I presume, when someone says, "whether or not I agree with you", that that means that they do not.

Just so it is clear, whether anyone agrees with me or not, is of little concern. I would ask of people though, when they read my posts or anyone else's posts, if a good case was presented, to ask yourself WHY is it not agreed with.

For some, it is because there is a better case made to believe something different. When that happens, that is super! For some though, they will not accept an idea, because it does not agree with an opinion they heard elsewhere, from their pastor perhaps. For others, an idea may seem uncommon, unconventional, just not in the majority. Is truth best determined by majorities, or by examining facts? Others still, believe or disbelieve an idea, depending on how appealing it is to them, they attempt to feel they way to a conclusion, is that the best way?

Each person, is accountable for how they themselves, handle God's word. When you come across ideas, sort it out methodically, and come to the best conclusion you can. I always invite people to be skeptical about anything I say or write, but I also encourage them to be open and dilligent - to search the scriptures daily, to see if these things are so.

An excellent post.

If we will choose to search the scriptures to see if these things are so, we will follow the excellent example that the scriptures themselves call on us to follow.

[Kansasdad]

I am going to be gone for 3 days so I will not be able to complete this until I am back. But let me ask a question. Do you think the Apostles new the answer to this question? And then, something as important as this, do you think Paul would have taught Timothy the correct understanding?

When you have two competing opinions both using scripture, but apposed to each other, Where do you turn for understanding. Both sides will claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, but clearly the Holy spirit is not guiding people to two different truths that are apposed to each other. This is where personal interpretation and Pride get in the way.

God Bless,

K.D.

I know of no scripture that would indicate that God is 3 separate being as taught by trinitarians,The man Jesus Christ is distinct from the Father because of his humanity,but to say God is 3 separate beings,people,persons,or inities is not biblical and in 14 pages,140+ post I have yet to see any one give scripture that would indicate this.

I know people get real deffencive when you tell them,what they had always been told or what they have learned is not necassaraly true,but I think it is important to study scripture with an open heart believing Gods word over any thing else ,even if it isn't what the church says ,or what your pastor says, or what your mother says.

Let me say this my dad was a preacher and he was trinitarian,my pastor now is trinitarian,my mom is trinitarian,I had always been trinitarian.Until I got truly saved ,started devouring the word praying dillegently for understanding and God has revealed himself to me.

Oneness was hard for me to accept when God first started revealing it to me, so I can understand why others might not want to accept it when I share with them the truth.But we must know that people in the church are fallible but God is not.

For those that can not separate themselves from their indoctrination an accept the truth of Gods word on this subject.I am sure they are still good God fearing christians on their way to heaven.But when people start acussing us that have accepted the truth of blasphemy and heresy then they are stepping onto some very thin ice.I honestly hope they dont fall through.

One more thing God revealed to me the doctrine of oneness b4 I ever knew that it was something that was taught or accepted by others

God Bless You All.

Maybe I missed it but I don't think you answered my question. You are defending your position, but you didn't answer my question. So here it is again.

#1:Do you think the Apostles new the answer to this question?

And then,#2: Something as important as this, do you think Paul would have taught Timothy the correct understanding?

There are two parts to the question and you may have a different answer to each, But just a simple yes or no will help me understand where you are coming from.

K.D.